Searching for the socks I never owned

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

Sorry, I read that back and realised it didnt make much sense! The question was can thought come first and 'attatch' to a bodily sensation or does the bodily sensation always come first?

Yes yo yoing pretty much sums it up. I seem to be constantly watching my thoughts, its a thought, thats another thought, in fact its all thought! And rather than having the awareness and being left with moments of quiet I just find its annoying me and then the cycle continues, thought is telling me I'm annoyed.

Thanks,

Bonnie

[Jadzia]

Sorry, I read that back and realised it didnt make much sense! The question was can thought come first and 'attatch' to a bodily sensation or does the bodily sensation always come first?

Anything is possible.
Thought content can be fear, without any physical sensation. If this is concentrated on a physical sensation will be taken and named fear .... might be constipation.... ;-)
There are lots of bodily sensations which thoughts can name, so sensation can be first, too.

Yes yo yoing pretty much sums it up. I seem to be constantly watching my thoughts, its a thought, thats another thought, in fact its all thought! And rather than having the awareness and being left with moments of quiet I just find its annoying me and then the cycle continues, thought is telling me I'm annoyed.

Relax, really do relax. The last set of questions I gave you showed you are pretty clear about that what we point to in this forum.
Now it is relaxing, not resisting anything and, this might sound odd, but enjoy.
There is no special way you have to be, feel or whatever - it is fine the way it is.

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

I took a few days to try relaxed observation, it worked well. I had two situations where normally my thoughts would have taken over completely but it was great as after some observation it ws so clear that this habit of protecting the me was so pointless as there was nothing to defend or protect. It was a bit of a eureka moment and I had them in the bath!

I have one question when observing thought, It seems like it is thought discussing thought. For a moment it feels like one side of that process is an I but it is quickly dismissed as of course I am not in thought or anywhere else; so the question is when observing thought, is it thought observing thought?

Also I find my thoughts are just rubbish, like real rubbish, TV programs, films, why does the mind fill with crap? its like it never allows anytime for the present moment to be experienced.

Thanks,

Bonnie

[Jadzia]

I took a few days to try relaxed observation, it worked well. I had two situations where normally my thoughts would have taken over completely but it was great as after some observation it ws so clear that this habit of protecting the me was so pointless as there was nothing to defend or protect. It was a bit of a eureka moment and I had them in the bath!

Beautiful. Lots of time for many people just goes into defending or protecting themselves, simply everything, it is wonderful when this habit drops.

I have one question when observing thought, It seems like it is thought discussing thought. For a moment it feels like one side of that process is an I but it is quickly dismissed as of course I am not in thought or anywhere else; so the question is when observing thought, is it thought observing thought?

It can look as if thoughts are interacting, as if one thought would know of the other, is it really so?
Can you find any connection between one thought and the other apart from what thougth tells?

Also I find my thoughts are just rubbish, like real rubbish, TV programs, films, why does the mind fill with crap? its like it never allows anytime for the present moment to be experienced.

Isn't both of same value, the rubbish and the experience of the present moment?
Isn't both just experience?
But..... with less resistence it will be a to and fro with thought free time spreading until something labeled exciting comes and then it starts again. ;-)
Just Life.

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

It can look as if thoughts are interacting, as if one thought would know of the other, is it really so?
No I can see that this isnt possible, there is no link between one thought and another. I think it can seem this way maybe through habitual thinking and memory but every thought is stand alone. It is just thought that tells that there is a link between thoughts.

Can you find any connection between one thought and the other apart from what thought tells?
No, where could a connection possibly be, it is only thought that says there is a connection.

Thanks,

Bonnie

[Jadzia]

It is just thought that tells that there is a link between thoughts.

It is really well done and since we come from the spot where we thought thoughts are something like our inner voice (?!) it really takes a bit to find out about their nature.

No, where could a connection possibly be, it is only thought that says there is a connection.

Same as thoughts tell "Bonnie is......", "This is like this and that....." and so on.
A good question here is:
Is it true?
Can I be 100% sure that it is true?
These are questions Byron Katie asks - and they are really helpful.

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

I think its a difficult shift to make because in the self help books it always says to watch your thoughts and be the watcher so I always assumed that watcher was the 'real' me now I am realising that neither the thoughts that are observing or the thoughts being observed are identified with a me.

I often ask these question to see whether the thought is true, nearly always its not. Its very useful to use with those self defeating thoughts. you cant do this or that or you are not good enough etc.

Im continuing to observe all the time and really trying to challenge some of those more ingrained repetitive thoughts. It feels a little bit like an exorcism!

Thanks,

Bonnie

[Jadzia]

I think its a difficult shift to make because in the self help books it always says to watch your thoughts and be the watcher so I always assumed that watcher was the 'real' me now I am realising that neither the thoughts that are observing or the thoughts being observed are identified with a me.

"The observer, find the place of the observer and rest there." Yes, it can give the idea that the I is the watcher.

Can thoughts observe?
There is something noticing/observing of course, noticing/observing happens.
We can call it a lot of names, whatever – all are labels of something we can hardly describe.

Im continuing to observe all the time and really trying to challenge some of those more ingrained repetitive thoughts. It feels a little bit like an exorcism!

So you are busy cleaning. You will find looking closely in situations, often stressful ones, is very helpful to find identifications or beliefs.

Bonnie, do you have any questions right now? If not I would like to go with you through a set of questions to check if we missed something.

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

No thoughts cannot observe, so what I am experiencing is observing happening, its not being done by anything or anyone. It takes a bit of getting used to.
Yes with the stressful situations I am discovering alot, especially about protecting the self. I also had a situation with a sudden rush of emotion and rather than being taken over by it I was able to observe more or less instantly. It was another good moment. I can identify the thoughts that need a bit more working through and when I am relaxed I follow the fear and identify the source and its usually about protecting image, the 'me' being seen in a bad light etc. I am finding that the difficult thoughts dont go completely but when they reappear its easier to work through.

I wanted to ask about love. I understand that everybody is the same but we love and its strong and its different. For example the love for my son and husband is different to that for my neighbour. Is love a physical sensation or is it rooted in thought?

That is the only question I have.

Thank you.

Bonnie

[Jadzia]

Yes with the stressful situations I am discovering alot, especially about protecting the self. I also had a situation with a sudden rush of emotion and rather than being taken over by it I was able to observe more or less instantly. It was another good moment. I can identify the thoughts that need a bit more working through and when I am relaxed I follow the fear and identify the source and its usually about protecting image, the 'me' being seen in a bad light etc. I am finding that the difficult thoughts dont go completely but when they reappear its easier to work through

Wow, beautiful insights!
Yes, with the belief in a separate self comes a strong urge for protecting and defending the self. Others have to see the I/self as thoughts tell about it and so on. There is a lot of energy coming free if this fades bit by bit.

I wanted to ask about love. I understand that everybody is the same but we love and its strong and its different. For example the love for my son and husband is different to that for my neighbour. Is love a physical sensation or is it rooted in thought?

What tells if love comes in different ways? What tells that a love of a mother for her son is any different than the one for a dear friend?
Could it be that the story about the one loved is different to the story about the other one loved and love is just love?

There is a physical sensation that could be labeled love, this feeling best described as heart wide open and warmth spreading.
Like everything else love is a concept an idea, but as with all other concepts it points to something we otherwise couldn't describe.

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

Yes, it is thought that suggests one 'story of love' is different from another. Labelling stronger or different to another. Its very clear now.

Thanks,

Bonnie

[Jadzia]

It is quiet helpful to ask yourself now and again, is it really so or is it a thought weaving on the story. This is something one will do for a while until relaxation sets in + the belief in thought weakens. One can still enjoy them though, they do have their merits.

Bonnie, here are our final or checking questions, we can see if there are spots we will have to look again and your answers will be shown to other guides, more eyes see more, they might find something we did miss.
Don't worry this is no kick out.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?

Take your time - I am looking forward to your answers. :-)

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there is no self in anyway, shape or form, The 'I' is just an idea/a concept that has been created in thought. No there was never an I.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of a seperate self is the idea that we are seperate and unique. That we are self contained in our body, we are our thoughts,beliefs values etc etc. we are our story. That we are special, that there is no one else like us in the world. That I am a product of all these things.
It starts when you are young, when you are taught language, and when you are given a name that you identify with. I feel this, I dont like this. you develop preferences, likes, dislikes all adding to this concept of self. I am this type of person, I believe in this or that and slowly like as if you were a shiny stone when you were born you gather a whole lot of moss that sticks to you and its so close to you, it feels like it is you and you cant see this at all. The moss is our story. It protects us, we protect it. We believe it completely, we defend it because we believe it is us. Yet all of it is an illusion that has been fabricated by thought.
The seperate self can also control everything, make decisions, choose what it wants and direct its own destiny. It is extremely powerful or so thought would have us believe.


3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It feels good but scary as I am trying to ditch a lifelong habit, a lifelong belief in the self. And it has been a part of my belief system for so long. Just to have the awareness is like a gift because before I believed all my thoughts, we would discuss, deliberate, analyse FOR HOURS! and now I can see them for what they really are, just something happening. Not to 'me', I cant control them, they cant do or change anything they just comment on experience based on past thought and experience.
It was a realisation when I would have two lots of thought seemingly arguing against each other but feeling like one side was me and the other not, or one thought seemingly observing another thought and the observer was me and then I realised none of the thoughts were me!


4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
I think it was when you told me to relax, everything was being clouded by frustration and that definitely helped. I also I commited myself to really looking whereas before I was getting annoyed and really listening to my thoughts which were negative.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Decision, Intention, free will, choice and control do not exist. they are all ideas fabricated in thought. Thought tells us that we are making decisions and choices but life just happens, how could a thought control or decide anything? thought suggests that it is an 'I' pulling all the strings but thought made up the concept of 'I' too.
I think there is a natural flow of life, and this is what makes things happen. I dont know how it works but I know that I am not controlling it. Im not sure everything can be explained.
Responsibility was difficult for me to understand but I believe that 'I' have no responsibility. when life happens, for example taking care of my son is part of that experience, there does not need to be an I for that to happen. Therefore 'I' can not be responsible for anything as I is an illusion.

6) Anything to add?
Its a truly great thing that you do and I am really grateful for the time you have spent guiding me.

Bonnie

[Jadzia]

Thank you for the answers - I love the idea of the moss, which seems to cover what is.

I will show this to other guides now, it might take a bit until someone has time. You will hear from me as soon as possible.

Love,
Jadzia

[Jadzia]

Dear Bonnie,

I am not the only one loving your moss analogy. :-)
There are no questions.

The thread will end here, but this doesn't have to be the end of the road. You can always pm me and in case you would like to walk on for a while with someone accompanying you, we could always start a thread in another place of this forum, you could ask for another guide too.

It might take a while, but admin will blue your name - which opens the Further Investigation part of this forum for you, and will send you links to the closed facebook groups you might join if you are interested. So look out for a pm from admin.

I really enjoyed walking with you! :-D

Love,
Jadzia