Searching for the socks I never owned

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

I watched the video, it was very interesting, I found the control and regulation part a little bit confusing but the idea of controlled hallucinations is close to the mark. There are so many variables that keep you believing that there is a self, like he said in the video it has not just been constructed in our own 'individual' life but since civilisation began.

Movement has to be life living too just like choice as thought cannot control either of these things; I think sometimes a movement will be a result of physical sensation, for example you have an itch the impulse is to scratch it, the movement has been activated by the phsical sensation, not a thought or anything like that.

Is it normal to still get stuck in thought? I find myself doing this for example thinking of my work schedule and having internal dialogue if I move this or change this etc etc and then I have to stop myself. My question is really what do I do once Ive noticed im buying into my thoughts do I try and go back to AE or do I observe why I am having them and identify the source.

I also find that when old patterns of thought come up which then I would behave in a certain way its difficult to redirect myself, so I say ok, this is all just thought, you are acting based on past thoughts and memories and thoughts suggest that I should behave in a certain way. There is no I that has been let down that is just a fabrication of thought.

Also if thought creates the illusion of more or less everything, does depression exist? Chemical imbalance aside most depression is a result of destructive thoughts, intrusive, all consuming. Would it not exist without thought?

Also most therapy must not work either, my previous job was a CBT therapist, it was completely ineffective as there was no way anyone could control or manage their thoughts anyway and on reflection it rarely worked.

Thanks,

Bonnie

[Jadzia]

Movement has to be life living too just like choice as thought cannot control either of these things; I think sometimes a movement will be a result of physical sensation, for example you have an itch the impulse is to scratch it, the movement has been activated by the phsical sensation, not a thought or anything like that.

Sometimes scratching happens, sometimes it doesn’t.

Is it normal to still get stuck in thought? I find myself doing this for example thinking of my work schedule and having internal dialogue if I move this or change this etc etc and then I have to stop myself. My question is really what do I do once Ive noticed im buying into my thoughts do I try and go back to AE or do I observe why I am having them and identify the source.

Oh yes, very normal!
Being free of thoughts for moments shorter or longer, noticing thoughts, having a good laugh about a thought, getting sucked into a story – ALL of this is IT.
Often thoughts calm down over years, decades, so one can just relax. If getting stuck is it, fine, noticing happens, then getting unstuck is it, fine.
See? Just relax, no right no wrong here. No one judging what is better or not, or? ;-)

I also find that when old patterns of thought come up which then I would behave in a certain way its difficult to redirect myself, so I say ok, this is all just thought, you are acting based on past thoughts and memories and thoughts suggest that I should behave in a certain way. There is no I that has been let down that is just a fabrication of thought.

Some folks go on working with the Byron Katie questions, others find own or other ways.
It is helpful to notice – like you wrote – that this is old programming. Sometimes ideas might pop up, when the program was written, which will release the emotions connected to the belief/identification.
There is a lot which will be seen and realized for what it is, and this cleaning up might take a while.
Do you find a difference in how this acts out before and after realizing that the I is just a construct, a belief?

Also if thought creates the illusion of more or less everything, does depression exist? Chemical imbalance aside most depression is a result of destructive thoughts, intrusive, all consuming. Would it not exist without thought?

Egg and hen, what is first? What do you think is depression without thought possible?

Also most therapy must not work either, my previous job was a CBT therapist, it was completely ineffective as there was no way anyone could control or manage their thoughts anyway and on reflection it rarely worked.

We totally leave our topic here, but why not. Many therapies work within the concept of an existent self. Still lots of them offer helpful things, insights ect. Everything that helps is fine.
I work people based too, and I found that my working style, erm, rather totally changed. You will find a way too.
When we are through in this thread, we can talk a bit about this if you like.

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

I feel what I'm struggling with is the ability to relax into things, emotions, fears and accept what is. I have to admit too I am hung up on the time it is taking me, I know thats just thought telling me that I'm slow etc etc and it has no significance and it is exasperating my inability to relax. Why am I still believing some thoughts and not others.

Do you find a difference in how this acts out before and after realizing that the I is just a construct, a belief?
Yes definitely with work related things and friends but I still have alot of sticking points with my family where I think some of the beliefs are more deeply ingrained and its like I go into automatic pilot.
For example my husband does something that I feel is unkind, I automatically go into catastrophising. I see all the thoughts are exactly the same as they always are like a program rerunnning, internal dialogue. So I have the awareness and then I am stuck as nothing changes. The anger is real, I feel it and then I stop any thoughts associated with it but the situation remains the same.

I dont think there can be depression without thought.

Thanks,

Bonnie

[Jadzia]

I feel what I'm struggling with is the ability to relax into things, emotions, fears and accept what is. I have to admit too I am hung up on the time it is taking me, I know thats just thought telling me that I'm slow etc etc and it has no significance and it is exasperating my inability to relax. Why am I still believing some thoughts and not others.

No resistance is one of the keys, accepting can come a bit later. There is no control about what you think ergo no chance to push away or turn around or whatever, you don’t choose the emotion ergo why resist?

Let’s look at relaxing into thought with an example:
“I am hung up on the time it is taking me”
Compared to whom? “Erm, I don’t know.”
And who says it?
“Erm, thought?”
Time doesn’t exist other than as concept – so how can it take too much time?
This in itself is just a thought pattern/habit.
So noticing, recognizing, sighing “You again” or “Nice try”, grinning, shaking and soon this thought will leave into the blue.
Ok, sometimes another thought might come.
Like “I have my deficiencies like......”
Well, well, and the same again. Noticing, recognizing, sighing, "blablabla,rubarb rubarb rubarb", grin, and the thought will disappear into the blue.

There is no need to understand something like why do I act like that, why does this thought appear and so on. Sometimes explanations will come as understanding, will pop up like: this is why I do it. No searching needed.

Ah, and do you know the saying:
“You think you’re enlightened, eh? Go visit your family”
Family just means that there are some more layers to have a look at. As simple as this.

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

Thank you, that has made things alot clearer.

Is that to say I observe all thoughts, as I would be doing it every second, its a continous stream.

Thanks,

Bonnie

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

Thank you, that has made things alot clearer.

Is that to say I observe all thoughts, as I would be doing it every second, its a continous stream.

Thanks,

Bonnie

[Jadzia]

Is that to say I observe all thoughts, as I would be doing it every second, its a continous stream.

Oh no, not all the time. Blimey, that sounds like hard work and that should be avoided.... ;-)

You already noticed that most thoughts are just passing by, they don't stick. They do their thought thing and gone they are. Right?
You only go into the noticing when you find that something sticks a bit, and maybe squeezes a bit - that is when you take a deep breath and have a look, aka go into loving noticing. No running away just noticing and observing how it unfolds, what happens in the body and just observe, no need to do something. No repairing or correcting and no judging.

On other times just lean back and enjoy the show - don't forget the popcorn!

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

Phew!! What a relief, that is what I was trying to do and it made my head hurt.

So today I wanted to eat some chocolate but im trying to cut down. The thought entered my head and my mouth started watering, this physical response would not have happened without thought or not?
I started thinking about my dad and I felt sad, a feeling that I labelled sadness. Without the thought of my dad the physical sensation never arises. I have no control over what thoughts pop into my head and there is no link between thought and emotion/feeling but why in these two cases does it feel like there is a direct link.

Thanks,

Bonnie

[Jadzia]

So no more headache, good.

......but why in these two cases does it feel like there is a direct link.

Feels? Is there a feeling or is there a thought "assuming" that there is a link, as in an information aka content of thought?

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

It is a thought assuming that there is a link, but how can there be a physical reaction?

Thanks,

Bonnie

[Jadzia]

There are thoughts about something, thoughts explaining, sorting in, trying to make sense and not allowing any breaks in the story.
So what about physical feeling?
Sit for a while and just be on the look out for physical feelings, what do you find?
Is there just one, or are there several?
Are they coming and going?
How many of them haven't you been aware of?

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

Yes there are several sensations at the same time, some stronger than others, one fades and another might become more prominent and then thought latches on to one and then the sensation becomes stronger. I understand with the mouth watering, the thought is stand alone, I want chocolate and another thought comes, you really want it as it has taken its best guess like in the video and associated the thought with the physical sensation, despite them being completely unlinked. How crafty! The two thoughts are so close together it can be difficult to decifer.
It is the same for the thought of my dad, another thought folllows with there is a sensation, in the past we have labelled this sadness so this is what you are feeling.
This is my interpretation.

When I have thoughts about my future is this still the belief that I am in control of the future? Not dreams or wants for the future but practical things, is there still not an element of trying to control in this?

Thanks,

Bonnie

[Jadzia]

I understand with the mouth watering, the thought is stand alone, I want chocolate and another thought comes, you really want it as it has taken its best guess like in the video and associated the thought with the physical sensation, despite them being completely unlinked. How crafty! The two thoughts are so close together it can be difficult to decifer.

There is a reason we all buy into the story of being separate – this thought thing is masterful, indeed.

Be on the look out for sensations which are labeled in a wrong/senseless way. This happens a lot, our speedy friends, the thoughts manage to mask this very well.

When I have thoughts about my future is this still the belief that I am in control of the future? Not dreams or wants for the future but practical things, is there still not an element of trying to control in this?

All kind of thoughts can be there, of future or of the past, that doesn’t mean that there is the belief in control in a future, this is just another thought. Thoughts about practical things can be helpful, nothing wrong with them or any other thought.

Is there a difference between a thought about future and one about past?
We say there are stories from the past and stories in the future, but aren’t both just stories?

Have a close look at how a story is woven, it is so clever and yes, convincing.
Once one drops the belief in a separate self one knows it is not exactly what it looks like, but for a while the show can still be quite convincing.

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

I just wanted to ask a question about what we spoke about before. The physical sensation always comes first or not always, I can see this in the case of the mouth watering. physical sensation, thought labels it hunger, more thought about something sweet, labels another physical sensation, mouth watering. But in the case of random thought about my dad, lots of bodily sensations, thought labels one of them sadness. In this the case the thought came first but just popped up as all thoughts do.

Is there a difference between a thought about future and one about past?

We say there are stories from the past and stories in the future, but aren’t both just stories?
Yes there is no difference, but the idea of control comes from that which hasnt happened yet so planning is an attempt to control what is going to happen. I assume this is needed thought but minus the attachment of the I, its for functioning rather than thinking the I will achieve something.

Have a close look at how a story is woven, it is so clever and yes, convincing.
Once one drops the belief in a separate self one knows it is not exactly what it looks like, but for a while the show can still be quite convincing.
A story can become complex and all consuming very quickly. A thought appears, then there is a whole host of what ifs, whys and layer upon layer of thought continue. you are in it then and your actual experience is non existent you dont even notice it. Then physical sensations are there, thought labels them, anger, frustration, annoyance, fear and then more thought layered on top. then the internal dialogue can start but if you hadnt have said/done that it would have been different, but I did it for this/that reason. And you are convinced that one of the voices is the real you so you are arguing with your mind! Then projections of the future, well if she says/does this ill say this/that so you create stories of what will happen. Then reasoning, offering solutions and then maybe a conclusion that you feel the real 'you' has come to. Exhausting.

Most of the time for me there is some level of awareness but sometimes you just get sucked in like a dyson. Usually fear related like I noticed I got sucked in this weekend and the underlying fear was losing my job or being made redundant. I think some fears can be deeply ingrained and they hook a bit better.

Thanks,

Bonnie

[Jadzia]

I just wanted to ask a question about what we spoke about before. The physical sensation always comes first or not always, I can see this in the case of the mouth watering. physical sensation, thought labels it hunger, more thought about something sweet, labels another physical sensation, mouth watering. But in the case of random thought about my dad, lots of bodily sensations, thought labels one of them sadness. In this the case the thought came first but just popped up as all thoughts do.

Sorry Bonnie, what exactly is the question?

Isn’t it a thought which tells about some experience being stickier than the other?

Like thinking about Dad is stickier?

Most of the time for me there is some level of awareness but sometimes you just get sucked in like a dyson. Usually fear related like I noticed I got sucked in this weekend and the underlying fear was losing my job or being made redundant. I think some fears can be deeply ingrained and they hook a bit better.

I love the dyson picture, makes me giggle.
Fear is something to simply allow. The fear related thoughts show something how Bonnie is seen and supposed to work. Stay with the fear, follow it around in the body and watch it dissolve.
And yes, some topics are many layered.
What you seem to be in is what is calles yo yo-ing, sometimes seemingly deeply involved in thoughts (who?) and sometimes not.

Love,
Jadzia