Guide Request

[Dawson]

Hi,

I was on here a while ago and was hoping to have another go!

...

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?

My understanding of this is that there is a sense of 'self' that is implied and informed by sensory information, thinking and feeling. For example, thinking occurs, and we interpret that as 'I am the one thinking this thought', without seeing if there's really someone or something behind it.

What are you looking for at LU?

I'm looking for clarity. to see things more accurately. As they actually are, not how I think they are or would like them to be. I've been 'on the path' for a while now. But it doesn't really feel like a path, because you're constantly going around in circles.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?

The benefit of being guided by someone is that they aren't biased in the way the ways that you are, or making the same assumptions. As such, they can challenge those thing as and when they arise, and help you to perform a course-correction (of sorts). Doing this on your own can be so challenging because of our seemingly endless capacity to b.s. ourselves.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?

I've meditated (mainly 'do-nothing' meditation) practiced self-inquiry with varying degrees of intensity and focus for some time, and spiritual autolysis. I've been seeking for about 3 years.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?

11

[Jadzia]

Welcome back, Dawson!

If you like we can walk together for a while and go exploring. :-)

My understanding of this is that there is a sense of 'self' that is implied and informed by sensory information, thinking and feeling.

There is something one could call sense of self, yes.
If you just look at your hands, is in that what is seen the information my and hand included?
What exactly is seen?
If it is not in the raw experience seeing where is it found?

Love,
Jadzia

[Dawson]

Thank you, Jadzia. I really appreciate your time!

So the self isn't in raw experience. When I look at 'my hand', all that is seen is hand. After the seeing, labels are applied, but they fall away to leave just experiencing.

If it is not in the raw experience seeing where is it found?

Well every time I try and look for it, I go blank and space out. I'm not trying to be obtuse by the way! Just honest.

Thanks again,
All the best.

[Jadzia]

Dawson, you are welcome. Honesty is one of the keys in this investigation, so it is fine.

So the self isn't in raw experience. When I look at 'my hand', all that is seen is hand. After the seeing, labels are applied, but they fall away to leave just experiencing.

What exactly do you see when looking at your hand? A hand?
Can hand be seen? Or is colour/form seen and hand is a label/word added to the experience?
So neither the hand or the me are in the raw experience, this just would be seeing=colour/form. Right?

Well every time I try and look for it, I go blank and space out.

Can happen. It is a bit difficult to look for something that isn't there... ;-)
Any way, have a look, is therea way in which this self can be experienced?
Can it be seen? Heard? Tasted? Smelled? Felt, like in physical sensation?
Or is it only noticed in content of thoughts?

Love,
Jadzia

[Dawson]

So neither the hand or the me are in the raw experience, this just would be seeing=colour/form. Right?

Right, agreed. Hand is just a label that's added to the experience.

Any way, have a look, is there a way in which this self can be experienced?

Not so much experienced, rather it's implied that self is the one that's doing the experiencing.
During the moments where you get self-referential and try to experience self, it does a disappearing act.
It also appears to not be one single thing, but a synthesis of elements.

For example, something occurs within sensory experience that triggers a thought and subsequently, a feeling or emotion arises. That whole process is then regarded as 'self' after the fact.

Can it be seen? Heard? Tasted? Smelled? Felt, like in physical sensation?

No, they're just sensations. I was just thinking of how when you're particularly enjoying a long walk and are so caught up in the experience that you forget there's even a you doing it.

So despite the fact that self isn't in sensations, sensations are still experienced and it feels as if they're experience by a someone

Or is it only noticed in content of thoughts?

I think thoughts are the main culprit. The judging, evaluating and narrating of experiences seems to be where it's most pronounced.

However, in instances that are relatively free from thinking, there is still this sense of being the centre from which everything is acknowledged.

[Jadzia]

So with the senses a self can’t be found, right.

So despite the fact that self isn't in sensations, sensations are still experienced and it feels as if they're experience by a someone

There is experience – is a someone needed for experience to happen?

I think thoughts are the main culprit. The judging, evaluating and narrating of experiences seems to be where it's most pronounced.

You think? Are you/the self the thinker of thoughts?

However, in instances that are relatively free from thinking, there is still this sense of being the centre from which everything is acknowledged.

There is something one could call awareness yes.

Today notice thoughts for some quiet minutes several times.
Watch out for what they tell about Dawson and how they do it.
Check how often an I,me,mine appear in the content of thoughts, in 30% of thoughts? 50%? 80%? More?
(Check for the hidden I,me,mine too, like in: “This car looks ugly”. The full sentence would be “I think the car looks ugly”)

Love,
Jadzia

[Dawson]

Sorry for the lack of a response, but I've been very busy at work.
There's an overwhelming portion of thoughts where 'I' is there. Having said that, there's also the kind of thoughts where a conversation is playing out as if another person were listening. That seems to be a very common one.

I'm going to continue to do this exercise over the coming days.

Also, I apologize for any inconvenience but I will be travelling for the next ten days, so responses may be less frequent.

Thanks very much for your continued guidance and Merry Christmas!

[Jadzia]

There's an overwhelming portion of thoughts where 'I' is there. Having said that, there's also the kind of thoughts where a conversation is playing out as if another person were listening. That seems to be a very common one.

This conversation who is the listener, can a listener be found? Or could it be thoughts? ONe seemingly relating to the other?

Please always answer all questions you find in a text.
These still need an answer, too.
There is experience – is a someone needed for experience to happen?
You think? Are you/the self the thinker of thoughts?

For this kind of investigation it is best if one writes daily, this builds up a momentum and seeing can happen.
It is travelling time for many now - so enjoy and have a good time.

Love,
Jadzia

[Dawson]

There is experience – is a someone needed for experience to happen?

No, because what constitutes a 'someone' changes from moment to moment. As I conetmplate this whilst looking around my apartment, there's just an 'is-ness' (for lack of a better phrase). I may think afterwards that that's evidence of a someone, but really, that would just be a thought occuring. Just had a fleeting moment where I had the sense of looking through myself. Hmm.

You think? Are you/the self the thinker of thoughts?

No. This is getting clearer and clearer. I'll have quick naps in the afternoon and notice the stream of consciousness doing its thing whilst in a light sleep. Now that I'm trying to shine a spotlight on my thoughts, there seems to be an absence of them. So thoughts imply a thinker. Now I think (!) I appreciate your line of questioning more.

This conversation who is the listener, can a listener be found? Or could it be thoughts? ONe seemingly relating to the other?

Ahh, so each thought informs what the subsequent thought will be creating this sense of dialogue and continuity. Are they entirely self-referential then? That's something I still need to investigate further.

For this kind of investigation it is best if one writes daily

I appreciate that and feel bad for having not given this the appropriate amount of attention over these last couple of days. I'll take my laptop with me, so shouldn't have difficulty maintaining regular communication.

Thanks very much, Jadzia.

All the best.

[Jadzia]

As I conetmplate this whilst looking around my apartment, there's just an 'is-ness' (for lack of a better phrase). I may think afterwards that that's evidence of a someone, but really, that would just be a thought occuring. Just had a fleeting moment where I had the sense of looking through myself. Hmm.

Just being? No extra fluff, just thoughts about someone?
Hm, can one look through something that only exists in thought? Or is the focus just a bit different?

No. This is getting clearer and clearer. I'll have quick naps in the afternoon and notice the stream of consciousness doing its thing whilst in a light sleep. Now that I'm trying to shine a spotlight on my thoughts, there seems to be an absence of them. So thoughts imply a thinker.

Thoughts seem to weave a story about a thinker, yes.
A quick check is: can one think only positive thoughts? Something many people would love to….
Can one not think something?

Ahh, so each thought informs what the subsequent thought will be creating this sense of dialogue and continuity. Are they entirely self-referential then? That's something I still need to investigate further.

Yes thoughts seem to be continuous and it seems as if one follows the other. But do they?
For one thought to follow another or adding to another one thought would need to know about the other. Is this so? Does one thought know about the other one? Can a thought do anything?

I'll take my laptop with me, so shouldn't have difficulty maintaining regular communication.

Hey, it is family or friends or both time now– so if you don’t find the time on a day it is ok, no need to feel bad. Ah, what tells about feeling bad? Can something/someone be bad? What is bad? A label? ;-)

Have a good time.

Love
Jadzia

[Dawson]

Just being? No extra fluff, just thoughts about someone?

Yeah. but the someone it's referencing is just a thought too. Like a mirage. Since my last post, I've been noticing my thoughts more. Seeing how they really are just thoughts.

Hm, can one look through something that only exists in thought? Or is the focus just a bit different?

I meant looking through the body. It was moment of not feeling as identified with it as usual. Probably just a different as you say.

A quick check is: can one think only positive thoughts? Something many people would love to….
Can one not think something?

Right, absolutely. It's impossible

Is this so? Does one thought know about the other one? Can a thought do anything?

I'm going to spend some time today paying attention to this. My inclination is to say no, they're just popping up. I need to investigate that a bit more though!

Alright, my battery is running low!

Thanks Jadzia,
All the best

[Jadzia]

Seeing how they really are just thoughts.

Yes, though there is nothing wrong with them it is good to see them for what they are.

I meant looking through the body. It was moment of not feeling as identified with it as usual. Probably just a different as you say.

If you look down at your body. You see your feet – are you in your feet?
Walk up the legs- are you in your legs?
Check the whole body – is a Dawson found in the body in any part?

I'm going to spend some time today paying attention to this. My inclination is to say no, they're just popping up. I need to investigate that a bit more though!

Take your time. :-)

Love,
Jadzia

[Dawson]

If you look down at your body. You see your feet – are you in your feet?
Walk up the legs- are you in your legs?
Check the whole body – is a Dawson found in the body in any part?

No, there is not a Dawson found in any part of the body. The identity is a combination of thoughts and stories, so it can't be.

Is this so? Does one thought know about the other one? Can a thought do anything?

Thoughts cannot know about other ones and can't do much of anything either.

I'm sorry for my minimal response, but I'm feeling particularly blank at the moment. Upon considering these questions, I struggle to hold on to them and end up just staring in to the distance. I think I'm expecting a click or moment of recognition, and that expectation of mine seems to be an unhelpful one.

Merry Christmas,
Alec

[Jadzia]

No, there is not a Dawson found in any part of the body. The identity is a combination of thoughts and stories, so it can't be.

So it is just body when looked at and not my body?

Thoughts cannot know about other ones and can't do much of anything either.

Yip, that isn’t exactly what a lot of books tell us, right? Lots of books on the power to create one’s own (?) life and the power thoughts have, well well well……

I'm sorry for my minimal response, but I'm feeling particularly blank at the moment. Upon considering these questions, I struggle to hold on to them and end up just staring in to the distance. I think I'm expecting a click or moment of recognition, and that expectation of mine seems to be an unhelpful one.

Sometimes we look, there is nothing to see or to find and the mind blanks – this is an answer too.

Yes, the big click and then everything falls into place. This doesn’t happen.
Why?
Everything already is in place and it was never any different.
It is the belief in the stories thoughts weave which keep up what we call illusion.
Once the belief wavers, looses strength, the overview shifts and that is soft and almost noiseless. Then the unraveling starts…… all the beliefs and identifications which are connected to the big belief in separation, the self being separate from everything else, start loosening up too.
This unraveling might not feel overly blissful.

Let this sink in and share what you find.

Have a lovely time,
Jadzia

[Dawson]

Hey Jadzia,

Sorry for my absence, but I've been without internet access for these past few days.

So it is just body when looked at and not my body?

Yes, although that identification with the body is still there. Although, there are times when it's just a part of experience in general and isn't differentiated from anything else that much.

Having said that, I've been agitated today - Noticing itches, constantly changing sensations that can feel aggravating. There tends to be much more identification during those moments.

Yip, that isn’t exactly what a lot of books tell us, right? Lots of books on the power to create one’s own (?) life and the power thoughts have, well well well……

Yes. To be honest, there has been a feeling a apathy recently. This sense of a complete lack of faith in thoughts, plans, fantasies and ideas that otherwise would present a sense of hope and certainty.

Once the belief wavers, looses strength, the overview shifts and that is soft and almost noiseless. Then the unraveling starts…… all the beliefs and identifications which are connected to the big belief in separation, the self being separate from everything else, start loosening up too.
This unraveling might not feel overly blissful.

It's hard to comment on this as there's been a sense of emotions changing a lot these past few days. Struggling to find a compass or something to cling on to (as melodramatic as that may sound). Then in contrast, that's interspursed with periods of just being. Nothing to say or to think or do on those occassions.

Thanks you very much.
All the best,
Alec