So how does this work? :-)

[vitakka]

I've practiced certain modality for some six years now -- It's not about changing or fixing or improving

To let you in a bit more on this: I look at life from the point of view that the natural state of a human being is to be fully conscious of her/himself and present in now without "I" and... well, you know. :-) But most of the time we are in normal state – whatever is normal in modern society anyway. So I practice in order to become consious of, shortly, what limiting conditionings keep me away from the natural state of being. Processes happen, opening up happens, unlearning from limiting beliefs and concepts happen. The questions I use as part of practicing always aim at "what is there that I so far have not become aware of", and that's why my approach now is also, like, "what unconscious stuff may there be that wants me to hold on to "I"". If you think that it's not useful here now that you work with me just let me know.

[Cam-RT]

Good morning Ville...

Sorry to hear of your trip to the hospital :^( ...I hope your doing better. My friends New born son has had a few surgeries and is still on a feeding tube and hasn't left the hospital since his birth in mid-July and still has a couple of months to go till he can go home ( poor kid is in a lot of pain.)

Anyway, the choice is up to you if you want to continue. My suggestion would still be to put modality on hold, and get the whole "self" thing in perspective then move on to what ever else seems to work for you...

The " I " is a misdirected thought construct that will only prove to get in the way in the future unless you break the loop...Think about it...There's no you.  You are literally the imagination of yourself.

Basically There's no liver (not the organ) ...Just Life!!
It is simple, as long as you see thru the delusion that these thoughts literally trace back into the nothing that they come from...

Think of the mind like the sky... and thoughts are the clouds, they have no mass, they come and they go...there are big "Ominous" dark clouds and bunches of little ones ( kinda like "chatter.")   You can't reach up and whisk them away...
They just are...so let them be...( like the old Beatles song..."Let it be")..."You" are the sky...Everything else is just the weather.

This physical connection is there because you choose it to be...Just LOOK and see for your self that none of these thoughts are who you actually are...

So without the body and the mind that houses these thoughts...Does "Ville" actually exist in real life??

[vitakka]

I'm good, thanks, the swelling's going away and the bone will heal in few weeks.

Anyway, the choice is up to you if you want to continue. My suggestion would still be to put modality on hold, and get the whole "self" thing in perspective then move on to what ever else seems to work for you...

Certainly. Maybe I wasn't thinking but honestly, I didn't count that modality because I don't regard it as a spiritual practice – rather as a way to spend quality time with yourself, if you will. I just thought I'd do the writing practice you described without writing stuff down. No agreement violation intended either, and I'll just put it on hold now.

Words have power... the power that we give them through attaching concepts to them, of course, but that association has become usually unconscious. Anyway, I wanna do that practice again with a sheet of paper and pen.

However:

So without the body and the mind that houses these thoughts...Does "Ville" actually exist in real life??

This was a good one that you got me with. Plus I've been observing "Ville" and "where is Ville" on daily basis, which has been good and brought new perspectives experiences. Whenever I focus on it the answer is no, there is no Ville. I had a great experience today while driving a car on motorway... it was just happening without anyone, any person, being there doing the driving. Radio was on, and hearing the music was just happening, seeing the road and the view as well as steering and being alive was just happening moment by moment. For some reason hearing felt the most different, somehow attachment-free or something, can't really put it in words...

Also when I focus on it and come to realize there's no Ville I understand that while I still feel the same tension's in my body I'm not tenser, there's no tenser, they are there and it's an experience, and tensions may be manifesting as a result of mental tensions but it doesn't matter. They just are there and that's it. Or a passing feeling of irritation (or what I've learned to call irritation anyway) is an experience that comes and goes, and it could be described as a process that's taking place in that moment in this being, but I'm not the one who's irritated because there's no "Ville" or anyone who's irritated. It's so clear, simple and obvious. Yet my mind still takes over and I get lost in the story about myself, until it is seen as an illusion again. Back and forth... maybe because, as they say, "it's too simple for mind to understand"? I feel as if I was between two worlds or something.

[vitakka]

So what expectations do you have from liberation ?

I feel interested in seeing what kind of difference it may make and want to be open to what may come, although I do have assumptions that perhaps there'll be less internal hustle and bustle, less resisting to "what is", less judging and labeling things and people. Who knowa, maybe there's none of some of those.

Or who know's, maybe there's still all of those but there's no one taking it personally anymore. :-)

[Cam-RT]

Good Afternoon! Ville...

Certainly. Maybe I wasn't thinking but honestly, I didn't count that modality because I don't regard it as a spiritual practice – rather as a way to spend quality time with yourself, if you will. I just thought I'd do the writing practice you described without writing stuff down. No agreement violation intended either, and I'll just put it on hold now.

Excellent!! You can always get back to whatever works out for you later, and see with more clarity when you do!
I have one friend that after liberation, is still studying different cultures, beliefs and rituals throughout the world sort of a hobby or interest I guess..

Words have power... the power that we give them through attaching concepts to them, of course, but that association has become usually unconscious. Anyway, I wanna do that practice again with a sheet of paper and pen.

It is interesting how each individual reacts on this exercise, and how we each perceive differently depending on the experience...The fact that "we" are not pronouns or labels in any way. Just living beings that use these for communication purposes and eventually get caught up in these imaginary "dead ends" and delusion of ownership.

Whenever I focus on it the answer is no, there is no Ville.

Was there ever??

I had a great experience today while driving a car on motorway... it was just happening without anyone, any person, being there doing the driving. Radio was on, and hearing the music was just happening, seeing the road and the view as well as steering and being alive was just happening moment by moment.

Again, Very Good!!...It's funny but at times, I look around and see people going about there business in an almost robotic manner, and I think to myself "We" (Our Bodies) serve as vehicles for our "life force" within...Then I think again, how people are a lot like cars...We fuel up, we go to the doctor (glorified mechanics) some are fast, some slow, some are pretty and get rebuilt on occasion ;^) paint, chrome, Well you see where I'm going with this...
Except, there is no driver...Just driving right?? ;^)

maybe there's still all of those but there's no one taking it personally anymore. :-)

Bamm!! You Nailed it!!

they are there and it's an experience, and tensions may be manifesting as a result of mental tensions but it doesn't matter. They just are there and that's it. Or a passing feeling of irritation (or what I've learned to call irritation anyway) is an experience that comes and goes, and it could be described as a process that's taking place in that moment in this being,

Yup, now for me it's like being on the top side of a ravine, with the clouds or "thoughts" below. I can see clearly and I pick and choose whatever thoughts or information/memories to visit...You're there too or very close I can see. :^)

It's so clear, simple and obvious. Yet my mind still takes over and I get lost in the story about myself, until it is seen as an illusion again. Back and forth... maybe because, as they say, "it's too simple for mind to understand"?

Nope, you said it perfectly...I'm so proud to see you're doing so Well!!
The illusion isn't destroyed...Just seen for what it 'Is'

Okay, please answer these questions (When Ready.) and feel free to elaborate as much as you see fit on each question...

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

[vitakka]

Hello Cam-RT,

yeah, there's been a feeling I'm on the right track here. My mind is just one of those who doubt and question beyond doubt and question, like "so is the right track or just some sort of new trap and illusion of being on right track", heh. So thank you for perspective. :-) You wrote:

Getting lost in the story is happening. With or without label I.

Yes. Nothing wrong with getting occasionally lost in the story!

So without the body and the mind that houses these thoughts...Does "Ville" actually exist in real life??

Without or with the body and mind, does "Ville" exist... ;-)

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

It has only existed in form of thoughts about who and like what "I" am in my mind, but in Reality there isn't and never was "me".

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

I can only assume it forms as a result of conditioning (very early in life) to what we hear our parents and other people, that we see as authorities, say about us and to what they do to us.

We notice that other people can physically do something to us and we can physically do something to objects (including other people) around me, thus we become aware of being physically separate from them in the wold of form. Then we hear verbal definitions about our behavior and attach them to ourselves (mind+feelings+body) and think "that's what I am like", and form an idea and a mental structure about some "I" that resides somewhere "in here". We also draw false conclusions that there's something wrong with us, and if we are not accepted we might not get food and care that we need to survive, so we want to conform to what we are told and what is said about us, and we don't question the mentioned verbal definitions and our own, false conclusions. At least not enough. :-)

3) How does it feel to see this?

Well, heh, liberating in many ways. It is empowering to realize that taking stuff personally has always been just a result of misunderstanding and phew, there's no need to blame anyone for getting upset or feeling this way and that way because it was "I's fault", but there's neither need to blame "I" for doing it because there's no "I" and the whole big scenario was a misunderstanding in the first place anyway. It's liberating also because there's no reason to hang on to verbal definition's about... hmmm... about anything, thus behaving according to presupmtions or on default.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.

Maybe the way I explained it in question 2. Or to mess around a bit :-) I could ask him "what is your next thought" and when he cathces it I'd ask "who was waiting for the thought?" Then I might ask him to think about some group or person he doesn't like and ask "what if you didn't have your (learned) opinions about them, would they then be so bad or how would you see them?" Then I'd ask if he believes in all opinions that other people may have about him? Probably not. Then I'd point out that he has thoughts and opinions about himself as well - which may or may not be true – and when you put all those thoughts together what do they make? What gets build up from them? And what if you didn't believe in them, what or who would you then be?

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look

Willingness to see combined with good pointers and "kōanesque" questions from you. :-) I can't pinpoint any particular moment, though. There's been a longer, slow process of unlearning old beliefs and conditionings. Then I had brief experiences that first made it intellectually comprehensible to think that "I" consists only of thoughts, and it is possible to live without identifying with them, identifying with "Ville". Then there was certain sentences or paragraphs in a book that I was reading, which touched on this subject and resonated in me. Lately I've been lucky, and happy, to meet people who share the interest in "these things", with whom I've had good conversations that have nudged me in this direction. And then willingness and even urge to see started to build up and got me.