Need guidance

[Olof]

Three things come up in this "looking"
1. Easy part is that it can be easily that this I or me or self is not the body. That is very clear since we can easily differentiate this me from the body.
2. Second part is to watch this thought that is going on. I have a problem here, how do you watch these thoughts coming up, because this watching or the decision to watch the thoughts coming up is itself given by a thought and it looks like a thought is looking at another thought.
3. There really seems to be a mind or a collection of primary thoughts which is different from the routine thoughts that is coming up. Otherwise who decides whether to go in search of nonduality or to go to office.

There seems to be a constant mind structure called Santosh, if it is just a thought why it's character or behaviour remains the same throughout his life. Even people who interact with Santosh knows is like this, so there is something which keeps Santosh the same despite all the routine thoughts rising. If Santosh is only made of thoughts rising up now then it can make Santosh a different person, why it is not the case.

Good job man, keep going at it!
Yes, when you watch the thoughts, the underlying belief of self is there as another structure of thoughts. You cannot drop this by looking at self with self. Just be present and look at them both, how both the rising thoughts, and the underlying assumption of the separate self, is based on thoughts and holds no ground in reality.

Both has to be dropped, seen.

No one decides, there is decision by the universe where you are. Thoughts then arise around all the things you do.

Yes! There IS a constant mind structure called Santosh, it is your mind made self. It does develop, you're not the same person you were 10 years ago right? You change all the time depending on the experiences you have in life. The thoughts about yourself doesn't even come from you usually, they are other peoples opinions that has been integrated into you. Thus, there is no central and constant unit within the mind made self (you), it changes all the time and is made up from experiences gathered from outside sources.

What is constant?

Without mind made self, there is still individuality, but it comes from a deeper place and is not based on upholding a social position or to gain security in life, it directs you towards your true purpose, what you are here to do. And this is not something that the mind made self can see any gain in whatsoever.

[santosh]

Good job man, keep going at it!
Yes, when you watch the thoughts, the underlying belief of self is there as another structure of thoughts. You cannot drop this by looking at self with self. Just be present and look at them both, how both the rising thoughts, and the underlying assumption of the separate self, is based on thoughts and holds no ground in reality.

1. This looking part I am finding it very difficult. I don' t know whether its pure lack of concentration or laziness or something the mind is playing. The moment I start looking it just doesn't go anywhere. Like there is a mental block. I read in other threads that generally when people start looking they notice fear, doubt, resistance, irritation. I don't get any of these. Its like when I say there is no self "OK', no response. I think I may not be going deep.


2. One thing I am sure that this whole nonduality comes down to realizing or experiencing that there is no self, any other information is unnecessary. But, for the curiosity sake, I wanted to ask this question.
One of the main reasons I turned to spirituality from young age is because I am a very shy person. It is in my genetics, my grandfather and mother are very shy, so I got the same. I am shy with everybody except for the closest people in my life. This self consciousness or shyness in outside world has been a traumatic factor all my life.

a. Since you were telling that there is a "mind made self" which is not constant and there is a individuality which is constant, where do you put my shyness to be among these two, since it has been a constant factor in my life since my birth.

b. And you were telling that " individuality is directing towards your true purpose". What is that purpose.

I repeat again I won't trouble you and myself with these sort of questions, since as you told and I have also realised that questions will never end and that main part is to understand that there is no self.

But, just for one time I want to know, since as you can see, this shyness has been a constant ongoing traumatic factor in my life. Don't think I am turning you into my therapist, I am not asking for a solution.

[Olof]

Good job man, keep going at it!
Yes, when you watch the thoughts, the underlying belief of self is there as another structure of thoughts. You cannot drop this by looking at self with self. Just be present and look at them both, how both the rising thoughts, and the underlying assumption of the separate self, is based on thoughts and holds no ground in reality.

1. This looking part I am finding it very difficult. I don' t know whether its pure lack of concentration or laziness or something the mind is playing. The moment I start looking it just doesn't go anywhere. Like there is a mental block. I read in other threads that generally when people start looking they notice fear, doubt, resistance, irritation. I don't get any of these. Its like when I say there is no self "OK', no response. I think I may not be going deep.


2. One thing I am sure that this whole nonduality comes down to realizing or experiencing that there is no self, any other information is unnecessary. But, for the curiosity sake, I wanted to ask this question.
One of the main reasons I turned to spirituality from young age is because I am a very shy person. It is in my genetics, my grandfather and mother are very shy, so I got the same. I am shy with everybody except for the closest people in my life. This self consciousness or shyness in outside world has been a traumatic factor all my life.

a. Since you were telling that there is a "mind made self" which is not constant and there is a individuality which is constant, where do you put my shyness to be among these two, since it has been a constant factor in my life since my birth.

b. And you were telling that " individuality is directing towards your true purpose". What is that purpose.

I repeat again I won't trouble you and myself with these sort of questions, since as you told and I have also realised that questions will never end and that main part is to understand that there is no self.

But, just for one time I want to know, since as you can see, this shyness has been a constant ongoing traumatic factor in my life. Don't think I am turning you into my therapist, I am not asking for a solution.

Just can't just sit there doing nothing. You have to do inquiry. If you believe there are unicorns in the world, and I tell you differently, you cant just look straight ahead, waiting for confirmation to appear wether its true or not.

Ask yourself questions, test if the answers that you get are valid.

What is I? What does the mind answer?

Is I only a thought among others?

When you ask your mind this, be HONEST and courageous. Keep looking at it, keep testing the questions. See what happends.

What is constant? The moment.

Does time exist, if so, where does it exist? Is it only in your mind, and all that exist is the moment?

Shyness stems from low self esteem, trying to hide your personality, not being confident enough to express yourself. That will disappear once you get this. But you might just not be a talkative person, but that is something different. It doesn't have to do with your genes, if your older relatives were shy, they then passed that behaviour to you as normal when you were a kid. When you grow up, you absorb behaviours from older people around you, and that becomes the normal way to act.

You don't have to be controled by other people.

Don't focus at all on this about a real individual self yet. That will only confuse you and make this harder. But I can promise you, that shyness is not part of it.

Keep looking and asking questions to the validity of the mental I that is owning the thoughts and doing the deeds. See what answers and feelings you get in response. Write them here. And dont procrastinate, I will try to answer quickly!

You are nothing, the only thing that is real, is that the world IS, its ONE HAPPENING. ONE continuous process. The tree of life.

Beware of all thoughts that say "I am that".

The only truth is: "I AM"

[santosh]

Just can't just sit there doing nothing. You have to do inquiry. If you believe there are unicorns in the world, and I tell you differently, you cant just look straight ahead, waiting for confirmation to appear wether its true or not.

Ask yourself questions, test if the answers that you get are valid.

What is I? What does the mind answer?

Is I only a thought among others?

When you ask your mind this, be HONEST and courageous. Keep looking at it, keep testing the questions. See what happends.

What is constant? The moment.

Does time exist, if so, where does it exist? Is it only in your mind, and all that exist is the moment?

Keep looking and asking questions to the validity of the mental I that is owning the thoughts and doing the deeds. See what answers and feelings you get in response. Write them here. And dont procrastinate, I will try to answer quickly!

You are nothing, the only thing that is real, is that the world IS, its ONE HAPPENING. ONE continuous process. The tree of life.

Beware of all thoughts that say "I am that".

The only truth is: "I AM"

[/quote]

1. One of my relative is irritating me, I want to get back at him, I plan to tackle him tactically, angrily etc. All this is done by something within me. All this plans are obviously done through the medium of thoughts. It may be a series of thoughts running from a few minutes to almost half an hour. Since this me is hurt it is planning things as to how to react. Now this requires something which is different from ordinary thoughts. How do you explain that.
2.

[Olof]

You have a self image made up of thoughts (mostly through memories). This self image describes who you are, how others should treat you, etc.

When your relative says: "Santosh, you are a fucking faggot". It basically sees it as, "thats not true", "why didnt he treat me with respect", "I deserve respect", yadayada. Its hurt, because it attacks the image you have of yourself, as a not faggot, a person who deserves respect, a serious person. (For example).

When somebody does something that goes against that self image, it is hurt (its not consistent with its own picture of your self)

Your body-mind connection creates feelings of hate, anger, pain. Thoughts arise about the feelings, and about how to defend the self image, they try to keep it intact.

"Lets tackle the fucker, that'll show him that I'm better, more dominating, that will take away his insult by bringing more pain to him than he did to me"

[Olof]

The only thing that is real about this, is the thoughts themselves that point to certain attributes, memories, and projections. Its like a thought-body. Through life, you build your self image through the way other people treat you, and how they treat each other. Its like a social programming software that directs your behaviour to fit in to society.

The thoughts are real, but they dont point to, or arise from, a central processor that could be called Santosh, the experiencer.

The only thing that can be said about you is: you are.

Is there any truth to additions beyond that? Look at it carefuly.

[Olof]

IS IS ONLY THOUGHTS ABOUT THOUGHTS!

[santosh]

You have a self image made up of thoughts (mostly through memories). This self image describes who you are, how others should treat you, etc.

The only thing that is real about this, is the thoughts themselves that point to certain attributes, memories, and projections. Its like a thought-body. Through life, you build your self image through the way other people treat you, and how they treat each other. Its like a social programming software that directs your behaviour to fit in to society.

The thoughts are real, but they dont point to, or arise from, a central processor that could be called Santosh, the experiencer.

My doubt is, if this self image or the thought-body is constantly with me through out life, then it is a sort of central processor or a self. It may be made up of thoughts, but it is different than ordinary thoughts by being always constant, more structured. So am I correct if I say there is:
1. Routine thoughts associated with present activity like looking, moving, hearing etc.
2. Then there is a mind stuff or thought body or self image which is a cohesive unit, staying always with Santosh. It is not a passing thought, it has memories of past. So it is in its own right a solid structure which though formed of thoughts are much more solid.
So how can you say that self is just a thought. Why this mind stuff cannot be called as my "self".

[Olof]

Because it builds only on memories of past situations. It cannot do anything, it isnt made of anything physical, its only a VIEW of yourself based on what has happened earlier.

Based on how you have acted in different situations, how other people have treated you, etc, this view of what you are like emerges. Now, you think that view is who you ARE? Its only a way to look at yourself, it doesnt control your body or do anything at all. Its a view based on many thoughts through a lot of years, can a view do anything in and of itself?

[santosh]

Because it builds only on memories of past situations. It cannot do anything, it isnt made of anything physical, its only a VIEW of yourself based on what has happened earlier.

Based on how you have acted in different situations, how other people have treated you, etc, this view of what you are like emerges. Now, you think that view is who you ARE? Its only a way to look at yourself, it doesnt control your body or do anything at all. Its a view based on many thoughts through a lot of years, can a view do anything in and of itself?

This "mind stuff" in my experience rules every aspect of my life. You say it is not a permanent thing. I agree intellectually but not experiencially. The reason I am stressing on this self image or mind stuff is when I try to look inside I am getting stuck in this. It seems very much the person called Santosh.

Another thing is despite looking and asking myself or repeating in my mind the question "who am I'. Or when I had a series of thoughts on something, immediately asking who is it who is thinking all this, there seems to be no reaction or response. Somehow it seems very artificial or cosmetic. Is it natural in the starting.

[Olof]

It only appears like it rules every aspect of your life because you view everything that happends (in your subjective view) through this filter. You see it through the image you have of yourself.

For example, a racist will connect most political issues to racial questions, because they view these problems through the filter of the belief - racism.

A medical doctor will view disease through his knowledge of medicine in a clinical setting, and see the consequences of that disease.

A geneticist will see the same disease through a genetical perspective, what happends within the genes to cause that disease.

A cell biologist will view the disease through the eyes of what happends inside the cells constituting the affected tissue.

An evolutionary biologist will see the same process as something that evolved through natural selection because of certain reasons.

They all see the same thing, but interpret it differently based on their collected knowledge - or view - of the process. But the process itself, is in reality exactly the same, its one process with many different levels of truth.

The view you have of yourself is like this. What you do or say, just happends by life itself, but you interpret it through the eyes of your self image (mind made self).


Life is thinking thoughts through the brain you utilize when you write here. You are life, and life is you. You are nothing, and yet everything. All forms, objects, thoughts, manifest and disintegrate with time. Only presence - or nothingness is eternal. It is in this nothingness that something can manifest. What other that nothing could contain everything?

Even objects doesn't exist, because there is no object-nature. A tree can not exist without the soil it grows in, without the sun that nourishes it, without the rain that falls from the clouds. Also, the tree cannot exist witout experience of the tree, because if there was no experience, there would be nothing to experience. They go together.

Thus, a tree implies rain, sun, soil, this implies planets, planets imply solar systems, solar systems imply galaxies, galaxies imply the universe. Life is one process, everything in this process, is connected with everything else. Nothing exists as a separate nature, because how could it?

Reality is experienced in your brain, but your brain is in reality. Everything is intertwined, this is the web of life. You cannot really single out an object or an event, because there are none in the real world. But our mind does this all the time to simplify things, although, its not truth, but an imagined version of the real thing. When we say tree, we mean a mental concept of a tree, because again, a tree cannot be explained without ultimately connecting it to everything else that goes on in the entire universe.

[santosh]

How do I experience what you have described so beautifully.

Just looking is not leading to anywhere. Shall I start meditating. Or close my eyes and just watch my thoughts. Something has be done just to have a start. I know it can happen now or take a long time. I will be patient but some start needs to be made.
C'mon man show me the way.

[Olof]

No one can hold your hand in this. No one can show it for you.

Lay down in bed, look at your mind, where are you?

What does the mind respond? Can you respond to (see through) its tries to explain itself?

Only do this, for maybe 30-40 minutes, then write here.

[Olof]

Where are you right this current moment?

[santosh]

I am at home, if that's you mean.