Request a guide to explore no-self

[ashwinravi]

Hi Floris!

I have been trying to inquire since yesterday, but been coming up with lots of resistance especially with regard to the first pointer you'd offered (quoted below)

Notice the sensations, the warmth, the sense of center there might be. Bring to mind that this experience is something which is probably held as the body, you, and inside. Then work a little to remove the idea that there is a body, you, and inside (for the moment). Examine what is actually experienced and try to reframe from putting any labels, ideas, and descriptions onto what you experience. What do you notice here, and does anything change after trying to have worked on removing the ideas, descriptions and labels?

During the occassions I was successful in inquiring, here's what was found during eyes shut:

Image of a dark field expanding out indefinitely, with a torso seated on chair with the head and upper body completely missing..

On another ocassion, when looking with eyes half shut, it felt like the head was being pulled apart in two opposing directions

Do you want me to persist with this or try the next one?

Ashwin

[Florisness]

Hi Ashwin,

Sounds like you're exploring this well.

Yes try the next one, to be honest I thought about these two paragraphs (quoted below) as belonging together. I would try to do the the whole body inquiry in one go. If you feel like it, you can also do the whole thing at once, but that's up to you.

Notice the sensations, the warmth, the sense of center there might be. Bring to mind that this experience is something which is probably held as the body, you, and inside. Then work a little to remove the idea that there is a body, you, and inside (for the moment). Examine what is actually experienced and try to reframe from putting any labels, ideas, and descriptions onto what you experience. What do you notice here, and does anything change after trying to have worked on removing the ideas, descriptions and labels?

Go to the experience you call head, fingers, legs, etc. and find out what is really is. Try to work again on ridding yourself of the idea of experiencing a head, fingers, legs etc. Then notice that what you call head, legs, feet, fingers etc are sensation. Is anything more present there then what we can label 'sensations'? What actually are, experientially, these parts you call head, fingers, feet, etc?

Also look if you can find any thing, entity, or being, that could be seperated from anything else.

Tell me what you (who isn't) find :-)

Floris

[ashwinravi]

Hi Floris :)

Thanks :) Tried the looking this time with the instructions from both the paragraphs you'd quoted

When my eyes were closed, it was def possible to not see body parts as body parts. Instead, there was merely empty space replacing the body.

It seems a bit little a magic trick to see the possibility that the body doesn't have to be conceived as a solid entity, at least during eyes closed, and that it's possible to 'undo' the body image so to speak

Again, no self could be found while looking with eyes closed. (Also, it seems a little easier to do inquiry eyes closed than open)

Ashwin

[Florisness]

Hi Ashwin,

It seems a bit little a magic trick to see the possibility that the body doesn't have to be conceived as a solid entity, at least during eyes closed, and that it's possible to 'undo' the body image so to speak

yes, that's good. further than it not having to be conceived as a solid entity, it does not have to be conceived as an entity at all. The word entity for me seems to carry the weight of a human, or other organism that is a cognizer or able to perceive. While a human, animal or whatever does not perceive at all, can you see this?

Floris

[ashwinravi]

Hi Floris,

Felt like sharing what's been happening in the last 4-5 days. It feels like there's again a sudden loss of interest and motivation in most things, but emotionally things are pretty light (unlike previous episodes where the emotions tended to be heavy and dense). If at all I'm interested in anything, it's just feeling this sense of being and taking long walks in the evening. Feeling slightly thrown off by this development. Just wondering if this is normal...


Regarding the use of the word 'entity', I hear you. While I don't feelnmuch of the solidity of the body with eyes closed, things are a little different with eyes open - bones and musculature are reflexively visualized whenever a body part is looked at...

I will be inquiring on the second set of pointers (the world) shortly; will share what I find

Thanks,
Ashwin

[Florisness]

Hi Ashwin,

Felt like sharing what's been happening in the last 4-5 days. It feels like there's again a sudden loss of interest and motivation in most things, but emotionally things are pretty light (unlike previous episodes where the emotions tended to be heavy and dense). If at all I'm interested in anything, it's just feeling this sense of being and taking long walks in the evening. Feeling slightly thrown off by this development. Just wondering if this is normal...

yes I know where you talk about, that's normal. A lot of people can stop performing certain activities and behaviors. It's a recontextualization that occurs and finding a new stability in life can either be a bit rough or a relief.

I will be inquiring on the second set of pointers (the world) shortly; will share what I find

Good luck!

Floris

[ashwinravi]

Hi Floris,

yes I know where you talk about, that's normal. A lot of people can stop performing certain activities and behaviors. It's a recontextualization that occurs and finding a new stability in life can either be a bit rough or a relief.

Didn't inquire much today. What I've been doing though is just sitting with eyes open and simply looking with a very relaxed and open stance. Usually within a few secs, objects at a distance appear much closer, with a diminished sense of boundaries between the objects. This has been happening on and off for the last 2-3 days. Thought I'd share...

Ashwin

[Florisness]

Hi Ashwin,

Didn't inquire much today. What I've been doing though is just sitting with eyes open and simply looking with a very relaxed and open stance. Usually within a few secs, objects at a distance appear much closer, with a diminished sense of boundaries between the objects. This has been happening on and off for the last 2-3 days. Thought I'd share...

thats good. Let's bring the focus back to our goal.

The sense of seperation, is it just a feeling (labeled 'sense of seperation') plus perhaps an idea, or is there really seperation? And what would there be that could even be seperated?

Is there a self? A doer or controller? A self that is cognising, understanding or thinking?

Floris

[ashwinravi]

thats good. Let's bring the focus back to our goal.

Appreciate it, Floris. Felt like I was starting to drift a bit there...Good catch :) Thanks for bringing back some focus

The sense of seperation, is it just a feeling (labeled 'sense of seperation') plus perhaps an idea, or is there really seperation? And what would there be that could even be seperated?

The sense of separation seems to be defined on the basis boundary of the skin surface of the body. Whatever is inside is taken to be 'me', and the outside is taken to be 'not me'. So the sense of separation seems more thought based than feeling based...

Is there a self? A doer or controller? A self that is cognising, understanding or thinking?

This part is clear. Cognizing, understanding and thinking happen independently, without any self carrying out these tasks

Ashwin

[Florisness]

Hi Ashwin,

The sense of separation seems to be defined on the basis boundary of the skin surface of the body. Whatever is inside is taken to be 'me', and the outside is taken to be 'not me'. So the sense of separation seems more thought based than feeling based...

So this seems to be the main sticking point for now, right?

here's an exercise, it's a bit of the same as already done, but some new ways of looking at it:

Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:
-Can it be known how tall the body is?
-Does the body have a weight or volume?
-In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
-Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
-Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
-Is there an inside or an outside?
-If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
-If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
-What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
-What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Good luck,
Floris

[ashwinravi]

Hey Floris :)

So this (sense of separation) seems to be the main sticking point for now, right?

Yes, you're right

To do the list of exercises you suggested, I went eyes closed and disregarded all prior mental images and thoughts about the body.

Here's what I found - I couldn't find a body. All I could feel were sensations. So with eyes closed, since no body was found in direct experience it doesn't even make sense to talk of height, volume, weight, shape, boundaries, inside and outside

The word 'body' actually doesn't point to anything, except certain sensations.

This level of clarity is not present when looking at the body with eyes open though. It feels pretty solid and real...

[Florisness]

Hey Ashwin,

Here's what I found - I couldn't find a body. All I could feel were sensations. So with eyes closed, since no body was found in direct experience it doesn't even make sense to talk of height, volume, weight, shape, boundaries, inside and outside

Nice finding!

The word 'body' actually doesn't point to anything, except certain sensations.

Yes so when the eyes are closed and there are only sensations and no body. Is there an inside and outside? Or perhaps the concept of inside is conceptualized by drawing an imaginary line around the sensations, and call it body and inside? Imagine the sensations gone, what is there of an inside and outside? Then imagine the sensations back, did an inside and outside get created or only sensations coming back, without a border around them? Then what do you make of the concept of seperation?

This level of clarity is not present when looking at the body with eyes open though. It feels pretty solid and real...

Yes it's a tricky mechanism. But carefully examine/inspect your own statements "it feels pretty solid and real", what does it, feel, solid, and real refer to here?
Your statement comes from a combinations of sensations and thought (concept)

Good luck,
Floris

[ashwinravi]

Hi Floris,

Thanks for another set of pointers to explore!

Been a busy day today, and feel a little tired. I'll do the looking again from tomorrow :)

Warmly,
Ashwin

[ashwinravi]

Yes so when the eyes are closed and there are only sensations and no body. Is there an inside and outside? Or perhaps the concept of inside is conceptualized by drawing an imaginary line around the sensations, and call it body and inside? Imagine the sensations gone, what is there of an inside and outside? Then imagine the sensations back, did an inside and outside get created or only sensations coming back, without a border around them? Then what do you make of the concept of seperation?

Hey Floris :)

With eyes closed (and disregarding mental images), there's no body. No inside-outside, either. Just sensations, but they need no 'container'-like setting to happen in. The concept of separation does not exist when viewed from an eyes-closed perspective.

But carefully examine/inspect your own statements "it feels pretty solid and real", what does it, feel, solid, and real refer to here?
Your statement comes from a combinations of sensations and thought (concept)

'it', 'feels', 'solid', 'real' - just words and label, solidfying the sense of separation.

[Florisness]

Hi Ashwin,

With eyes closed (and disregarding mental images), there's no body. No inside-outside, either. Just sensations, but they need no 'container'-like setting to happen in. The concept of separation does not exist when viewed from an eyes-closed perspective.

And does seperation come into existence when the eyes open? Are you expecting the sense of seperation to go? If so, the sense of seperation is proportional to the amount of identification, which isn't going to blow out of the water by being clear on there not existing an I or self.

'it', 'feels', 'solid', 'real' - just words and label, solidfying the sense of separation.

Yes exactly, but when unexamined can carry lots of (conceptual caused) weight. The self is nothing more than such a label, but can carry quite some baggage. Do you see that?

Is there a self experiencing this sense of seperation? Where does this sense/feeling belong to?

A further question for me gage where you're at: How has this whole investigation been happening? Any self/Aswhin/you/person that has been doing or going through all of it?

Keep at it,
Floris