I'm Ready.

[Renvid]

This is key! Does it really refer to something? If it does wouldn't you be able to clearly say what it is or point to it? I want to you to look, feel, listen, do whatever it takes, to find out what the label 'me' refers to, exactly. There's probably a chair in the room where you are now or a table, the word chair is a label that refers to a definite clearly identifiable object just like the word table does. Now, does the word Me refer, in a similar way, to anything definite? Or is it rather like the word 'university' that refers to a whole bunch of things like students, teachers, classrooms, libraries, sports teams, but to nothing essentially?

I cannot pin point where this "me" is. There isn't a particular "me" but "me" is made up from my mind and body, so I suppose "me" would be comparable to a university, in that it only exists to label a group of things. However a body and mind form "me" just as oxygen and hydrogen form water. However, in this case "me" isn't really tangible.

Is it true that you can choose what you think? If it is why would you ever choose to have unpleasant, fearful, anxious, sad thoughts? Choosing obviously does happen. A choice was made to come on this forum for example. But if there is any thing like an separate me that DOES the choosing, surely it would be obvious what it is and where it is?

What you say is a good point...and like I said before I observed that thinking is mainly automatic unless I actively am aware that I'm thinking. Then you say another good point....there isn't a separate "me" who makes choices the only difference is whether I'm completely aware of making them or not. Also there isn't anywhere I can pinpoint where I specifically make choices. If I choose to touch my hand it just happens I don't have to consciously do it even if I'm aware.

this seems to me obviously absurd. You might say you choose to EAT bananas more than apples but I've never heard of any creature that can choose to like the taste of something! Although I wish I had this talent. If I could choose to like dogfood and cardboard I I'd save fortune on my grocery bill. Think of an unpleasant tasting substance. Can you simply choose to like the taste of it? No. But this is beside the point. What IS this 'I' that chooses? What does 'I' refer to here?

I realize that you were right I think I was a bit tired when I made that analogy hah. You can't choose to like something, you just like it. haha. I can't really find anything that chooses...and I'm not really sure what "i" refers to. I know that there is a choice made...it just happens. I cannot really describe how it happens but it does. For example if I want to go eat something, it is because I'm hungry. I suppose "I" am not required to make that choice, because it is a reaction. Does that mean choices are merely reactions?

Right focus on this feeling then Kenny. Where is this 'some kind of me' that can control some aspects of your mind and body? Can you feel it anywhere in particular? If it really exists you should be able to locate it.

I cannot locate me, but more like there is awareness. A subjective awareness that reacts to things that happen automatically whether "I'm" aware of them or not. It's confusing...

Yes, there is something that is aware! But is it personal? Can it be located anywhere?

Okay yes there is awareness...and I think it is personal. Because "my" awareness isn't a cat"s awareness or your awareness. It just happens to be aware of this body and mind. The awareness itself cannot be located anywhere...it just is...awareness just happens. Hmmm

In fact is there someTHING that is aware? Or is this just a misleading trick of language? Is there really only awareness and no thing that is doing any of it?

Let me know what you notice Kenny.

Hmm you make a good point. There is just awareness...but how can there be awareness if there is nothing to experience it? I know I'm not causing awareness or doing awareness. But I experience awareness. Why would there be awareness if no viewer? I still see a "me" to all this...but that is only because this awareness is limited/subjective.

[Renvid]

I understand what you're saying and everything...I'm not only thinking about all of this but I'm observing, looking, and doing. However, it feels like I'm not quite there..I'm almost there but something hasn't "clicked".

[Trevor]

I understand what you're saying and everything...I'm not only thinking about all of this but I'm observing, looking, and doing. However, it feels like I'm not quite there..I'm almost there but something hasn't "clicked".

You're doing great Kenny. You're really close. In fact, the whole point is you're already there! There is no you, never was a you and there never will be.

How do you think it is supposed to feel? There is no self anywhere, and there never was, so now that you're really looking really hard for one without being able to find anything, why should it feel all that different? The only thing to lose are a couple of unjustified, albeit long held, beliefs.

Did you ever believe in Santa Claus when you were little? When you found out he wasn't real what changed? WHat happened to Santa Claus? What happened to the little kid that stopped beleiving in him?

How would life be without a self? How would choosing and deciding happen without a self?

[Trevor]

Okay yes there is awareness...and I think it is personal. Because "my" awareness isn't a cat"s awareness or your awareness. It just happens to be aware of this body and mind. The awareness itself cannot be located anywhere...it just is...awareness just happens. Hmmm

I think you're being tricked by language here with "my awareness" or "cat's awareness", "your awareness". Yes, there are things I am aware of here and that the cat is aware of over there that you're not aware of. But "my awareness" or cat's awareness implies a separate entity called trevor or the cat that has their own awareness. And this is precisely the whole bullshit belief we're trying to see through here. If you can't find a separate self in your own experience, why leap to the conclusion there a separate selves in other creatures?!!
There is life, or awareness, and over there it is Cat-ing, here it's Trevor-ing and over there it's Kenny-ing.

Hmm you make a good point. There is just awareness...but how can there be awareness if there is nothing to experience it? I know I'm not causing awareness or doing awareness. But I experience awareness. Why would there be awareness if no viewer? I still see a "me" to all this...but that is only because this awareness is limited/subjective.

Is this true? Is it true that "you" experience awareness? Or is it precisely the other way around?

There is clearly awareness. Now show me the you that experiences awareness! Where is the you that experiences anything? Outside of a grammar book, why do you think there even needs to be a "you" separate from awareness to experience awareness? Don't be tempted to think about these questions. Continue to look at your experience.

I still see a "me" to all this...but that is only because this awareness is limited/subjective.

Where do you "see" a me to all this? Do you really see a me to all this? Or do you just have a feeling somewhere that you then label "me"?

How is awareness limited? What is outside of awareness?

[Renvid]

You're doing great Kenny. You're really close. In fact, the whole point is you're already there! There is no you, never was a you and there never will be.

How do you think it is supposed to feel? There is no self anywhere, and there never was, so now that you're really looking really hard for one without being able to find anything, why should it feel all that different? The only thing to lose are a couple of unjustified, albeit long held, beliefs.

Did you ever believe in Santa Claus when you were little? When you found out he wasn't real what changed? WHat happened to Santa Claus? What happened to the little kid that stopped beleiving in him?

How would life be without a self? How would choosing and deciding happen without a self?

Just personally I don't feel like I see or notice anything different. In fact I still feel like there is a "me'", even though I can't pinpoint specifically where...I see all the pieces but I can't put them together. I know you suggested that I look rather than think about these things...so what are some more ways to see that there is no me? How would I go about doing them? I'll be back in a few hours to respond to some more of your questions.

[Renvid]

I think you're being tricked by language here with "my awareness" or "cat's awareness", "your awareness". Yes, there are things I am aware of here and that the cat is aware of over there that you're not aware of. But "my awareness" or cat's awareness implies a separate entity called trevor or the cat that has their own awareness. And this is precisely the whole bullshit belief we're trying to see through here. If you can't find a separate self in your own experience, why leap to the conclusion there a separate selves in other creatures?!!
There is life, or awareness, and over there it is Cat-ing, here it's Trevor-ing and over there it's Kenny-ing.

Ok so awareness just "is" and it happens to everything...what I call "me" is not "kenny" but merely one instance of awareness? is this whole universe aware then? are trees, or rocks, or nothing aware? Why does awareness have to be...why isn't there just no awareness.

Is this true? Is it true that "you" experience awareness? Or is it precisely the other way around?

There is clearly awareness. Now show me the you that experiences awareness! Where is the you that experiences anything? Outside of a grammar book, why do you think there even needs to be a "you" separate from awareness to experience awareness? Don't be tempted to think about these questions. Continue to look at your experience.

So what you're saying is that I don't experience awareness, and since there is no "I", awareness makes the illusion of "I"? And it makes this illusion of I because it doesn't know what else to call it and also because that is what we were always taught...or something.

And well there doesn't need to be a "me" to experience awareness I suppose...I mean if there just is awareness, then everything else is just reactions that are experienced. And what we are trying to do is to make awareness be aware of awareness which sounds funny...but I'm also not sure if this is correct. Is what I call "me" just awareness? Is me a label for awareness?

Where do you "see" a me to all this? Do you really see a me to all this? Or do you just have a feeling somewhere that you then label "me"?

How is awareness limited? What is outside of awareness?

There isn't really a me but merely awareness. "I" am just awareness...i think this is true. I cannot find me to all of this if I look and think about it. So maybe what I mixed up was that what I call "me" is actually awareness.....wait a second I think I'm starting to see it. Hmmm so Kenny is merely a story that is happening...what makes a "me", I suppose, is memories and expectations. But if I remove that, there is just the present awareness. Ahhh this is all too confusing...I think I'm doing too much thinking and not enough "looking". I pieced everything together for a glimpse but for some reason I forgot it.

So yes, definitely me is a label of past experiences, expectations, feelings, thoughts, sensations, PLUS most importantly awareness. So combining all those together doesn't a "me" exist?

Awareness is limited because this awareness of "mine" only one part of awareness...part there are many points of awareness throughout the universe. I'm not too sure of what is outside of awareness, perhaps nothing?

[Trevor]

Just personally I don't feel like I see or notice anything different. In fact I still feel like there is a "me'", even though I can't pinpoint specifically where...I see all the pieces but I can't put them together. I know you suggested that I look rather than think about these things...so what are some more ways to see that there is no me? How would I go about doing them? I'll be back in a few hours to respond to some more of your questions.

You're getting a little unfocused and imprecise here Kenny.

Please go back and sincerely look at the questions I asked you and post me your replies when you feel you're ready.

"I still feel like there's a me" - ok so you still feel like there's a me, so have a look, does this feeling mean there's an actual me? I can still remember the excitement of being a kid and believing in Santa Claus. That excitement didn't refer to anyone real tho did it? Does your feeling like there's a "me" refer to an actual "me"?

What's this "still feel like there's a me" made up of?
My guess is it'll be made up of feelings, sensations and thoughts.
This inquiry isn't going to make any feeling sensations or thoughts go away.
It can just make it clear to see what these thoughts feeling and sensations really are.

What we mistakenly refer to as the sense of self is just that, a sense of - but nothing real.
Some feelings + a label = "me"
Can a bunch of feelings and a thought which labels them "me" do anything?

[Renvid]

How do you think it is supposed to feel? There is no self anywhere, and there never was, so now that you're really looking really hard for one without being able to find anything, why should it feel all that different? The only thing to lose are a couple of unjustified, albeit long held, beliefs.

I think it's supposed to feel perhaps surprising at least. For some reason I don't feel to surprised about not finding myself anywhere. It feels underwhelming. I suppose it wouldn't feel any different either. Question is, what is the point of finding out that "me" doesn't exist if there isn't any difference except losing this belief?

Did you ever believe in Santa Claus when you were little? When you found out he wasn't real what changed? WHat happened to Santa Claus? What happened to the little kid that stopped beleiving in him?

Yes, I believed in him. When I found out he wasn't real, the only thing that changed was knowing that instead of getting presents from Santa I was getting presents from my parents. Santa Claus was still there, but only in fiction. Nothing happened to the little kid that stopped believing in him, the only difference was that I now know he is fiction.

How would life be without a self? How would choosing and deciding happen without a self?

Life without a self would be the same. Decisions would happen like they always have, as a reaction to thoughts and stimuli.

"I still feel like there's a me" - ok so you still feel like there's a me, so have a look, does this feeling mean there's an actual me? I can still remember the excitement of being a kid and believing in Santa Claus. That excitement didn't refer to anyone real tho did it? Does your feeling like there's a "me" refer to an actual "me"?

This feeling doesn't necessarily mean there IS a me. Yes, that excitement refereed to nothing real, only in our imaginations. Perhaps the feeling of me does refer to a me. Why would there be a feeling and reference to a me if I don't exist?

What's this "still feel like there's a me" made up of? My guess is it'll be made up of feelings, sensations and thoughts.

It's made up of thoughts about me, feelings, knowing I exist, awareness, etc. So yes what you say is true.

This inquiry isn't going to make any feeling sensations or thoughts go away.
It can just make it clear to see what these thoughts feeling and sensations really are.

I understand that there is no me, and it boils down to that. However i'm not sure what thoughts, feeling, or sensations truly are. Best guess is just reactions.

What we mistakenly refer to as the sense of self is just that, a sense of - but nothing real.
Some feelings + a label = "me"
Can a bunch of feelings and a thought which labels them "me" do anything?

So me is a sixth sense? A sense of imagination? Also feelings and thoughts can do things, just indirectly. Although perhaps these actions are involuntary. In fact why does one have to think if one already knows what it wants and is going to do?

[Trevor]

There isn't really a me but merely awareness. "I" am just awareness...i think this is true. I cannot find me to all of this if I look and think about it. So maybe what I mixed up was that what I call "me" is actually awareness.....wait a second I think I'm starting to see it. Hmmm so Kenny is merely a story that is happening...what makes a "me", I suppose, is memories and expectations. But if I remove that, there is just the present awareness. Ahhh this is all too confusing...I think I'm doing too much thinking and not enough "looking". I pieced everything together for a glimpse but for some reason I forgot it.

So yes, definitely me is a label of past experiences, expectations, feelings, thoughts, sensations, PLUS most importantly awareness. So combining all those together doesn't a "me" exist?

Awareness is limited because this awareness of "mine" only one part of awareness...part there are many points of awareness throughout the universe. I'm not too sure of what is outside of awareness, perhaps nothing?

Very good Kenny! Yes, "me" exists but as thought referring to a story made of other thoughts! Kenny is a story, "me" is a story. A story after the fact - life happens and then mind comes in, out of habit and conditioning, and makes a story up about it, drawing lines across reality where there are none, saying this is me/this is not me/

What you really are IS nothing, no -THING, which for convenience can be labelled awareness but can you point to awareness? Awareness is like empty space - you're only really aware of it when stuff shows up in it. Then the mind comes in and tries to own it and say 'that's me', 'that's not me'. The point is there is no separate "me". Ultimately it's either all me or not me. But there's no "who", it's all incredibly intimate but absolutely nothing personal.

what makes a "me", I suppose, is memories and expectations. But if I remove that, there is just the present awareness. Ahhh this is all too confusing...

There's no need to remove anything. Just the seeing is enough. Once you see that "me" is only a story that is it. The story most likely will keep going but you'll no longer believe in it, it won't have the same weight or power over "you".

And yes it IS confusing from time to time. There'll be moments of clarity and moments of confusion. And there's nothing you can do about it but notice that everything happens in the same empty space of consciousness or awareness or reality where everything happens. Sometimes the labelling 'confusion' is applied sometimes 'clarity'.

Let's try to keep it real simple. Keep noticing how life happens effortlessly whether the thought "me" comes up or not. In your present experience keep look for what the label "me" refers, a sensation in your chest here, a tingling behind the eyes then, feeling in your tummy now, intellectual confusion etc. And when you look, notice if there's a "you" that looks or just looking occurring on it's own.

[Trevor]

"I still feel like there's a me" - ok so you still feel like there's a me, so have a look, does this feeling mean there's an actual me? I can still remember the excitement of being a kid and believing in Santa Claus. That excitement didn't refer to anyone real tho did it? Does your feeling like there's a "me" refer to an actual "me"?

This feeling doesn't necessarily mean there IS a me. Yes, that excitement refereed to nothing real, only in our imaginations. Perhaps the feeling of me does refer to a me. Why would there be a feeling and reference to a me if I don't exist?

OK. Let's look closely again. Clearly something exists. A feeling say in your chest. The mind comes in and says that's me. Then the mind comes in and says 'Why would there be a feeling and reference to 'me' if 'I' don't exist? Language traps! Mind made up I and Me in the first place! Just because the mind has labelled something me doesn't mean there really is something sparate that exists called I. There is just awareness or aliveness, belonging to no-one. Then labelling happens and that's where all this confusion comes from.

[Trevor]

I understand that there is no me, and it boils down to that. However i'm not sure what thoughts, feeling, or sensations truly are. Best guess is just reactions.

Keep focused. For now all you need to clearly see is that that there's is no me. Focus on getting that clearly seen and then the other questions will gradually fall into place. For now keep looking at "there is no me". Let whatver thoughts, feeling, or sensations happen, happen and just notice that they're not happening to any separate entity called 'Me'.

[Trevor]

Hello Kenny,

Haven't heard from you for a while. How is it going? I hope you're well.

Best,

Trevor

[Renvid]

Very good Kenny! Yes, "me" exists but as thought referring to a story made of other thoughts! Kenny is a story, "me" is a story. A story after the fact - life happens and then mind comes in, out of habit and conditioning, and makes a story up about it, drawing lines across reality where there are none, saying this is me/this is not me/

What you really are IS nothing, no -THING, which for convenience can be labelled awareness but can you point to awareness? Awareness is like empty space - you're only really aware of it when stuff shows up in it. Then the mind comes in and tries to own it and say 'that's me', 'that's not me'. The point is there is no separate "me". Ultimately it's either all me or not me. But there's no "who", it's all incredibly intimate but absolutely nothing personal.

I can't exactly point to awareness. But hmm i understand what you're saying.

There's no need to remove anything. Just the seeing is enough. Once you see that "me" is only a story that is it. The story most likely will keep going but you'll no longer believe in it, it won't have the same weight or power over "you".

And yes it IS confusing from time to time. There'll be moments of clarity and moments of confusion. And there's nothing you can do about it but notice that everything happens in the same empty space of consciousness or awareness or reality where everything happens. Sometimes the labelling 'confusion' is applied sometimes 'clarity'.

Let's try to keep it real simple. Keep noticing how life happens effortlessly whether the thought "me" comes up or not. In your present experience keep look for what the label "me" refers, a sensation in your chest here, a tingling behind the eyes then, feeling in your tummy now, intellectual confusion etc. And when you look, notice if there's a "you" that looks or just looking occurring on it's own.

I suppose there isn't a real "me" that looks for things, but merely just awareness.

OK. Let's look closely again. Clearly something exists. A feeling say in your chest. The mind comes in and says that's me. Then the mind comes in and says 'Why would there be a feeling and reference to 'me' if 'I' don't exist? Language traps! Mind made up I and Me in the first place! Just because the mind has labelled something me doesn't mean there really is something sparate that exists called I. There is just awareness or aliveness, belonging to no-one. Then labelling happens and that's where all this confusion comes from.

Hmm okay so you're saying that what "me" and "I" are just a language error...and are incorrect labels for being alive? I think I understand what you're saying. for example when I was born there wasn't a me, but there was awareness. Then slowly over time language came in and I mistook me for awareness.

Keep focused. For now all you need to clearly see is that that there's is no me. Focus on getting that clearly seen and then the other questions will gradually fall into place. For now keep looking at "there is no me". Let whatver thoughts, feeling, or sensations happen, happen and just notice that they're not happening to any separate entity called 'Me'.

Ok...so there is no me. It's still confusing to wrap my head around but all of what you say make sense. I will need to further test. But if what you're saying is true and what I see...then all of this is really underwhelming. Is this really it? I don't really see any difference, I suppose there wouldn't be any difference. You say that all that is different is that the belief of a me is gone, and that is true. But then what's the point? I now know that there is no me. Did it really matter if i figured out there was no me?

Hello Kenny,

Haven't heard from you for a while. How is it going? I hope you're well.

Best,

Trevor

Hey I'm good. I've just been busy with lots of work lately, and preparing for school.

[Trevor]

Ok...so there is no me. It's still confusing to wrap my head around but all of what you say make sense. I will need to further test. But if what you're saying is true and what I see...then all of this is really underwhelming. Is this really it? I don't really see any difference, I suppose there wouldn't be any difference. You say that all that is different is that the belief of a me is gone, and that is true. But then what's the point? I now know that there is no me. Did it really matter if i figured out there was no me?

In a way what I'm saying is worth nothing to you Kenny because this whole exercise is all about what you're seeing. It's not about agreeing with my words but seeing the truth of what they point to. I don't want you to think what I say makes sense. I want you to go away and test it, look at it, feel it. When you see what we're pointing to here, you'll know you've seen it.

As for whether no me is underwhelming - that's a matter of your expectations. What did you expect?

And once you've completely seen through this, you can ponder those other questions yourself. My answer to what's the point of a false belief being seen through is, firstly, that it is just better not to believe in false ideas. Secondly when you really see there is no 'you' there is a tremendous sense of freedom and relaxation in the mind and body. The belief in the separate 'me' fuels a hell of a lot of anxiety. A lot of effort goes in to protecting this 'me' but once seen through, there is a gradual falling away of many unnecessary 'me' based behaviours.

Does it really matter if you figured it out? Yes and no. It mattered simply because you did figure it out and it can end a lot of suffering and a lot of very frustrating behaviour. And no ultimately there's no you, either way, so of course it never mattered. Who or what could it matter to? There is nothing and no you that can stop this being seen. It'll be seen through or it won't. It'll be a big deal or it won't. No 'you' to do anything about it.

Seeing through the false idea of there being a separate individual self is far from the final word. It is simply the first step. There are lots more beliefs to be seen through.

But for now let me ask you four questions to see where you really are on this Kenny

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion?

Please take your time on these, Kenny. Look and feel as long as it takes to get the answers.