Only see when seeing

[kevnj240]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The self is a projection by the subconscious. It takes the identity of the experiancer. I want it gone.

What are you looking for at LU?
Guidence to remove the "experiencer". It just inserts itself in everything. I have read a few of your threads and I like the approach taken. I think this will work for me. It would be a great opportunity to get coached by people who have actually realized the truth.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To uncover all my beliefs and whatever else that support the experiancer. I suspect that I am attached to some views that block the truth. I further that some incorrect views are so deeply engrained because on some level the idea of letting them go poses an existintial threat.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I started out doing Zen back in my 20's. I practiced off and on (mostly off) over the years. I am now practicing Dozgchen as taught by Jackson Peterson.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[MichaelD]

Hello Kevn,

Yes, I will be happy to assist you in exploring the illusion of the ‘separate self’. I can only point the way but you have to see it for yourself. That is why we are described as guides and not teachers. If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Just let me know that you have read the disclaimer, the FAQ's and we can then start the exploration.

Look forward to receiving your reply,

Michael

[kevnj240]

Hello Michael,
I am so fortunate to be meeting you. Thank you for helping me. I understand that you are a volunteer and have other obligations so I really appreciate what you're doing.
I have reviewed all the material as you requested.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer
Ok, I read the disclaimer

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041
Learned about the quote function.

http//liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ..
Ok so, I have read the disclaimer and the FAQs.

Shall we begin?

[MichaelD]

Hi Kevn,

Thanks for your post.

Very sorry for the delay but I was waiting for email notification - there is a spanner symbol at the bottom of the page - click on that (as I will) and all should be well!

Typically, I will ask a series of questions and or ask you to do various exercises and I hope you will answer from your direct and actual experience as honestly as you can.

From your introduction it is clear that you want to see and to 'know' so I needn't really mention not digressing into abstractions and theory.

To this end it is recommended to not read Dharma / spiritual books or watch 'spiritual' videos while engaged in this enquiry so outside ideas do not colour your direct experience.

Crucial to your looking (like with so many things in life) is having the right attitude and this is what we will now address.

So to get underway I would like you to do two things please:

Firstly, can you identify what your expectations are and write them out for me.

And

Secondly, can you also tell me any reservations, fears, or possible obstacles that may hinder you.

We will then address whatever comes up which will be a bit like clearing the decks, or emptying the cup!

Yours,

Michael

[kevnj240]

Hello Michael,

This is my fourth try to answer your message. I suspect that my iPad isn't up to the task so I am using my sons laptop.

Sorry, but on this computer I cannot see the quote function.

You asked what my expectations were.
I expect you to use questions and exercises to help me see beyond my current paradigms. Namely the paradigms of my own existence. I can intellectually understand hearing requires no hearer. That seeing requires no seer. I want to rid myself of the experiencer.

You asked about any fears or reservations I am aware of that might interfere with the process.
1. I think that on some level I believe that enlightenment is annihilation.
2. I have this notion that enlightenment would be abandonment of my family. I wouldn't want to "escape" samsara and leave them behind to suffer who knows what. Even though none of us truly exist apart from Being, there are my conventional loved ones experiencing conventional sufferings.
3. I dont know for sure but I suspect there might be some selfishness or vain motives at work in my seeking. I have seen this in other seekers and really hope this is not true in my case.

Thanks Michael.

[MichaelD]

Hi Kevn,

You asked what my expectations were.
I expect you to use questions and exercises to help me see beyond my current paradigms. Namely the paradigms of my own existence. I can intellectually understand hearing requires no hearer. That seeing requires no seer. I want to rid myself of the experiencer.

That all seems fine. You won't get rid of the experiencer - you will just see that it was an illusion.

1. I think that on some level I believe that enlightenment is annihilation.

Fair enough, a quite common view. Similar to the above really - the only 'thing' that will be anihilated is illusion. This is exactly analogous to losing your belief in Santa Clause or your belief that politicians tell the truth etc.

2. I have this notion that enlightenment would be abandonment of my family. I wouldn't want to "escape" samsara and leave them behind to suffer who knows what. Even though none of us truly exist apart from Being, there are my conventional loved ones experiencing conventional sufferings.

The opposite! No chance of abandonment. With filters removed you will be more fully present for them (not that there is a you or a present but I'm sure you know what I mean).

3. No need to worry about imputity of motivation just look with an open and interested attitude.

OK, lets get underway.

There is not a lot of theory that we need to get going, however, it is worth just mentioning what I mean by 'direct experience', since this is going to be a recurring theme.

When I use the term 'direct experience', I mean immediate sense experience (what is seen, felt, heard etc right here and now) and also thoughts as immediately experienced.

So for example "I am hungry" is a judgement, not a description of direct experience.

On the other hand, "There is a hard ache in my stomach, and thoughts about food and the possibility of eating keep arising" is describing some of the direct experience involved in being hungry.

So as a warm-up exercise, can you write a few lines to convey some of your direct experience as you (I assume) sit in front of your computer now?

Have fun!

Michael

[kevnj240]

Michael,
So here is some direct experience happening now.

Was experienceing an uneasy feeling in my chest that is caused by/linked to thoughts of sadness and dread in my mind. Watched too much news last night. This dread heavy sinking feeling radiates out from the center of the chest to nearly the walls of the torso.
The couch is soft but firm. I feel its pressure against the back butt and legs. Slightly cool to the touch. I hear traffic in the distance. There is the smell of sandlewood from a stick lit earlier. Its fragrance experienced in the back of the nasal pasages near the throat. Attention given to sensations and the dreadful feeling is getting much lighter. I feel its area diminishing . What was shrinking is rising. There is a buoyant feeling in the heart and lungs.

Thanks Michael.

[MichaelD]

Hi Kevn,

Was experienceing an uneasy feeling in my chest that is caused by/linked to thoughts of sadness and dread in my mind. Watched too much news last night. This dread heavy sinking feeling radiates out from the center of the chest to nearly the walls of the torso.
The couch is soft but firm. I feel its pressure against the back butt and legs. Slightly cool to the touch. I hear traffic in the distance. There is the smell of sandlewood from a stick lit earlier. Its fragrance experienced in the back of the nasal pasages near the throat. Attention given to sensations and the dreadful feeling is getting much lighter. I feel its area diminishing . What was shrinking is rising. There is a buoyant feeling in the heart and lungs.

Thanks.

Not bad at all! Much of it is direct experience including thought in the moment. Some is just conception - 'walls of the torso' cannot be found in direct experience nor can an "I" that hears traffic. Traffic is heard full stop! but of course this is what we are going to be addressing.

OK so you have a good basis to start from so let's get underway!

Sitting quietly somewhere, become aware of the six senses, seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling and whatever is passing through the mind.

Focusing on sight say to yourself,
'I am seeing - a table, wall, lamp' whatever it is.

Then with sound 'I am hearing - traffic, the fridge' or whatever.
'I am touching - the floor, cushion, chair' as occurs.

Smell and taste are obviously subtler and we'll see how you get on with 'I am thinking...'

Then do just the same without the 'I'

'Seeing table'
'Hearing a dog'.
'Smelling incense' etc

What happens when you drop the notion or label "I"

Enjoy!

Michael

[kevnj240]

Hello Michael,

You asked what happens when there is sense experience and mental content without the I being included as the experiencer or owner of the experience or mind content.

Had to repeat the exercise a few times but this is what was noticed.
There was a sense of ease or lightness added to each experience, I could say I noticed something missing. This ease also carries with it a small happiness or delight. I suspect this happiness might be natural to egoless perception. I just experienced a little of it but it was there consistently to the degree that perception was without self- reflection.
So, I see that this self is the buzz-kill of everyday experience. Preventing all these many bits of happiness that could occur. Ordinary experience could be so awesome and uplifting without the self.

[MichaelD]

Hi Kevn,

There was a sense of ease or lightness added to each experience, I could say I noticed something missing. This ease also carries with it a small happiness or delight. I suspect this happiness might be natural to egoless perception. I just experienced a little of it but it was there consistently to the degree that perception was without self- reflection.
So, I see that this self is the buzz-kill of everyday experience. Preventing all these many bits of happiness that could occur. Ordinary experience could be so awesome and uplifting without the self.

Wow. Good noticing - well done.

I think you will enjoy this next excercise:

Our upbringing teaches us that we are a subject (separate self), that there is an object of perception, and an act of perception.

But is this true?

Choose an item such as a cup or an apple and look at it. If there is a separate self, we should be able to locate a boundary.
In direct experience can a boundary be found?

Is there an act of perception or is perception just occurring?

Enjoy!

Michael

[kevnj240]

Hello Michael,
Hope you are well and peaceful.

You asked me to look at an object. You then said, if there is a seperate self, we should be able to locate a boundry.
In direct experiance, can a boundry be found?
Im not sure I understand the question. A boundery between what and what? There is only space between this body and objects being perceived.

You asked, is there an act of perception or is perception just occurring? That's easy. Perceptions just occur on their own. When I eat, I don't will to taste the food.

Take care Michael and thank you.

[MichaelD]

Hi Kevn,

Thanks for your post.

If you could use the quote function it would make dialogue clearer and far easier for guides that check our conversation once it is completed. It is easy and there is a short video at the Gate which explains how to use it.

Thanks.

You asked, is there an act of perception or is perception just occurring? That's easy. Perceptions just occur on their own. When I eat, I don't will to taste the food.

Exactly! This is important - well done.

You asked me to look at an object. You then said, if there is a seperate self, we should be able to locate a boundry.
In direct experiance, can a boundry be found?
Im not sure I understand the question. A boundery between what and what? There is only space between this body and objects being perceived.

We are looking to see if there is a boundary between the so called object and the so called self. If there is a self we should be able to locate the boundary - the edge of the self.

If it is hard to understand try using sound. to do this simply sit quietly with eyes closed, relax and then notice sound. Perhaps there will be birdsong or traffic noises.

Is there a boundary between the sound and 'you'?

Is there separation at all or just experience of sound?

between the taste and the taster?

Can a 'hearer' or 'taster' be found in direct experience?

Michael

[kevnj240]

Hello Michael,
Thank you for the clarification.

You asked,

Is there a barrier between taste and taster

No barrier. Taste is immediate and independent of any idea of a taster.

Thank you.

[kevnj240]

Sorry Michael,

I failed to answer a question.

You asked,

Can a hearer or taster be found in direct experiance?

No. It is only a thought and is secondary to the experience

Thank you.

[MichaelD]

Hi,



Is there a barrier between taste and taster?

No barrier. Taste is immediate and independent of any idea of a taster.

Can a hearer or taster be found in direct experiance?

No. It is only a thought and is secondary to the experience

Great answers!

Do you feel any different now you have seen this?

Is there a separate self?

Is there separation at all?

What role does thought play in this?

Great looking - keep it up!

Michael