Newbie

[Allybally]

Hi Stacy,

yes I can see its part of the process and helps us both. I think I was just trying to answer the questions but I am looking!

Touch each leg, alternating. Touch both legs.

See if you can see past this interpretation of spatial relationships in sensing.

Is there "location?"

Is there thought saying there is "location?"

Is there only sensing happening?

What is found?

I found this quite tricky, you mind is so used to knowing which side is right or left that it feels very much like there is a location element but no I don't think there is. I did a lot of poking my left leg, right leg both. Then I kept poking lots of locations all over my chest for quite a while. I then stood on one foot and then the other. The more I did it the more I could focus on just the sensation. I couldn't feel a difference between the right and left leg and then when I poked different places again I felt that they all felt the same, so it didn't feel like there was a specific location.

Think about how a painter must see in order to paint on a flat canvas. LOOK.

With eyes open, can you see dimensionality in Actual/Direct Experience? Or is it thought saying there is?

I did think of this a few days ago, if everything is just the experience of seeing and we divide different things up by labelling then what we see must just as well be a flat surface of different shades, colours, shapes. I'm ok with that.

What I am struggling with is that I can see an object I label a cup, I can touch it, pick it up and drink from it etc. It is very real that there is something there (labelled a cup).

I can do the same with my body, I can see it is there I can touch it.

So are these cups/bodies/sofas etc different things or not?

Further, is there a "me" separate that is seeing something outside itself? Or could there be there just Seeing happening?

To be honest I don't really even understand this question any more. I'm not even sure what the self is any more. Maybe that is a good thing but I'm quite confused. I can fully accept that sensations and experiences can just happen and that they don't have to happen to an I. But I am struggling to see how those experiences tie into my body and how that fits into the rest of the world. Are we trying to see that there is no difference between the body and everything else?

The experience happening is not one of a sofa, where I am looking out upon the body of a sofa and feeling the pressure of someone sitting on me, its one of looking out on a human body and and feeling the pressure of sitting on something else.

Those are just my thoughts at the minute.

Thanks,
Alan

[Anastacia42]

Hi Alan,

This is great! You kept LOOKING, kept checking until you could see that location is a story, or the content of thought arising, but not Actual Experience. These things can be fun to play with.

I found this quite tricky, you mind is so used to knowing which side is right or left that it feels very much like there is a location element but no I don't think there is. I did a lot of poking my left leg, right leg both. Then I kept poking lots of locations all over my chest for quite a while. I then stood on one foot and then the other. The more I did it the more I could focus on just the sensation. I couldn't feel a difference between the right and left leg and then when I poked different places again I felt that they all felt the same, so it didn't feel like there was a specific location.

Okay, let's look at all of this:

What I am struggling with is that I can see an object I label a cup, I can touch it, pick it up and drink from it etc. It is very real that there is something there (labelled a cup).

I can do the same with my body, I can see it is there I can touch it.

So are these cups/bodies/sofas etc different things or not?

Further, is there a "me" separate that is seeing something outside itself? Or could there be there just Seeing happening?

To be honest I don't really even understand this question any more. I'm not even sure what the self is any more. Maybe that is a good thing but I'm quite confused. I can fully accept that sensations and experiences can just happen and that they don't have to happen to an I. But I am struggling to see how those experiences tie into my body and how that fits into the rest of the world. Are we trying to see that there is no difference between the body and everything else?

Remember to answer every question in Blue.

Yes & no. Can you find a "body" - or anything else - in Actual Experience is the real question? It is fine to be confused - much better than "thinking" you "know" "the answer."

Remind me - have you read any of "Gateless Gatecrashers?" It might be helpful. It's a free download under the Books link above. Read some of those and see if it helps you to SEE via someone else's experiences.

Let's do this exercise. You've done something similar, but not this exact version. Yes, do each piece and answer every question. This will help both of us, as you said.

Looking at an Object

Wherever you are sitting right now, look for an object to use. Don’t pick up the object or
turn it around, only look at what can be seen without touching it or turning it.

Have one?

Now look at it and describe what you see. Give yourself a bit of time with it. Just look,
nothing else.

Done?

Now describe the back side of the object.

How is it known what the back side looks like?

What tells what it looks like?

How can it be known that there is a back at all? That the object is 3D?

Can this be known in direct experience?

Can an object be known at all?

Let me know how this one goes for you.

Much love,

[Allybally]

Hi Stacy,

I think I am just getting confused quite a bit. I can see and accept fully that our senses give us some information and that our brain/mind makes up the rest, fills in the dots, gives us a filled in 'reality' that we can work with so we can live, keep ourselves out of danger, feed ourselves etc. I can see that all these exercises point to that but how does the being able to see this help in seeing that there is no self?

Or could there be there just Seeing happening?

I can see this now, more and more clearly. This morning I was in bed and a imaginary vision popped in my head and then the word associated with it. The word itself didn't make any sense, it wasn't even a word. Where did that come from and why did I think of it?? If it had been an actual word I probably would have explained it away as a memory or something I seen recently on tv or a book. But because the word itself didn't exist it really made me realise that it was truly a random object arising without any influence of a 'me'. I can see that all the senses just happen at that second.

I haven't done the exercise as yet.

Thanks,
Alan

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

Doing the exercises as what will answer your question.

how does the being able to see this help in seeing that there is no self?

It helps because they're the same. No cup, no chair, no body, no self, no nothing.

It is easier to look for it outside yourself at first. We are less attached to the story of cup than we are to self and many other things.

Self, the idea of self, is just the content of a thought arising and is just as meaningless as the content of a thought of cup arising.

But all of that is theoretical until you see. We are not here to discuss theory. Doing the exercises will answer most of your questions.

I look forward to your experience with the most recent exercise and questions.

Much love,

[Allybally]

Hi Stacy,

ok, I am just quite confused at the minute but I will do the exercises as best I can.

Now look at it and describe what you see. Give yourself a bit of time with it. Just look,
nothing else.

I can see a coaster sitting on the coffee table, there is a picture of my dog on the coaster.

Now describe the back side of the object.

I can't see the back of the object, its made of cork so I presume the back looks like cork

What tells what it looks like?

I know its made of cork on the back and I have seen cork many times so I am guessing it will look similar

How can it be known that there is a back at all? That the object is 3D?

You can't know that

Can this be known in direct experience?

You cannot know what the back is like from direct experience

Can an object be known at all?

To look at? I don't know, What do we mean by known? There are things we call different objects and they look different from each other. A coaster looks like a coaster. I can experience something as having particular visual properties which I might label as a coaster.


Thanks,
Alan

[Anastacia42]

Hi Alan,

Do you remember when you told me that you understood that you have to look to answer the questions and not just think about something you remember or imagine?

If I ask you what color your socks are, you can do one of two things.

1. You can think about it and remember that you put the green ones on this morning and tell me that they're green. That is not Actual Experience.

2. Or you can take a look at your socks and actually see them and see that they're green and tell me that they're green. The second way is what we want you to do when we ask you to look or LOOK at something in an exercise.
.

Yes thats clear, only direct experience not what I think is there.

So, remembering this, please go back and do the exercise again and LOOK. Do not answer with things you think or remember. It won't help.

That is why you're confused. You are answering from thinking. It's very simple. Answer only from looking.

Warmly,

[Allybally]

Hi Stacy,

Do you mean go back to labelling colors/light etc again?

I am aware its all labelling and that its just variations of colour/light. The thing i have labelled a coaster is a square object sitting on top of the thing ive labelled a table. I cannot know or see the back of it. It has different colours and shapes on the top that look like an image the same as my dog.

Thanks
Alan

[Anastacia42]

Yes.

Re-read the exercise & answer only what is seen - no thinking, no imagining, no remembering.

Each of these below is either thinking, imagining, or remembering:

a coaster sitting on the coffee table, there is a picture of my dog on the coaster.

Who told you it was a coaster? A dog? Or a picture of a dog? Or a coffee table?


Do not answer with labels. LOOK and really see without them.

I can't see the back of the object, its made of cork so I presume the back looks like cork

If you can't see the back of the object, why are you telling me anything about it? To presume is thinking and labeling. Presuming is not direct experience (DE)

A coaster looks like a coaster. I can experience something as having particular visual properties which I might label as a coaster.

Can you find a coaster in Direct Experience or is there only color and a thought arising with the content of the label "coaster?" The content is not Direct Experience.

If no one taught you the label, "coaster," what would you see?

Remember, this is not about getting right answers and giving them to me here. This is about LOOKING and SEEING. It IS a meditation. We only use words so I can have a sense of your experience and help guide.

Please spend some more time with this. Read and reread if you have to.

Much love,

[Allybally]

Hi Stacy,

Thanks for your patience, sometimes I find this quite frustrating when I get very confused but when I am most confused it is usually followed by it dissolving a bit and things becoming clearer.

I woke up this morning and things seemed a lot clearer. I think the confusion is a language thing, when it is said there is no body, no anything I was finding it hard to grasp. I was taking that quite literally to mean there was nothing. Its not that stuff/matter doesn't exist at all, but that the things we label don't exist. I watched this video and that really made sense to me with the exercises we have done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYp5XuGYqqY the 12 minute mark is where things fell into place a bit.

This is something I can really experience when I did the eyes closed body sensations exercise. I found that very convincing. I do struggle more with the visual side of things.

Here is the exercise again now I feel a bit better about it:

Now look at it and describe what you see. Give yourself a bit of time with it. Just look,
nothing else.

If I remove labels and honestly say what I see all I can see is a series of shapes and colours, I can't tell if an object is closer or further away, or what it can do.

Now describe the back side of the object.

when I look at the thing on my desk thats called a pen tidy then I don't know if there is a back side, I can only see a flat shape of colour.

What tells what it looks like?

Its only a thought that would tell me what I would expect the back side to look like, if it has a back side

How can it be known that there is a back at all? That the object is 3D?

You can' t it just looks flat, I have no idea if it is 3D

Can an object be known at all?

No, your mind can tell you what you expect but visually you cannot know anything about it.

I did feel like giving up yesterday.

Thanks,
Alan

[Anastacia42]

Good afternoon,

Excellent.

Can an object be known at all?
No, your mind can tell you what you expect but visually you cannot know anything about it.

I did feel like giving up yesterday.

Yes, I sensed that. I looked at a piece or two of the TED Talk. I'm at work and can't watch the whole thing right now, but it looks like it's on track with what we're doing. We do encourage you to use LU materials during this time, so as not to confuse yourself, but this one un-confused you & I'm glad it worked!

"Mind telling you what you expect" is the content piece of the Actual Experience (AE) of Thought Arising. Can you see now why the content of thought has no meaning? We made it up!

Yes. You are beginning to understand what to do to LOOK. These exercises are teaching you the *process* with things that are a bit less threatening than "me." This is skill-building - *and* SEEING one thing can suddenly precipitate SEEING EVERYTHING.

Before I give you another exercise, I'd like for you to re-read your thread with your new understanding in mind. I think the whole thing will look very different. Then we will move on.

Much love & congratulations on the breakthrough!

[Allybally]

Hi Stacy,

I went right through all our posts from the start as you suggested. Certainly things seem clearer now that when I started.

Thanks,
Alan

[Anastacia42]

Hi Alan!

Interesting, isn't it, to see where you've been.

You missed this question, though. Care to share?

"Mind telling you what you expect" is the content piece of the Actual Experience (AE) of Thought Arising. Can you see now why the content of thought has no meaning? We made it up!

And then . . .

Thought Exercises - Observing Thoughts

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.


Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?


It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Yes, please answer every question as fully as possible.

Enjoy!

Much love,

[Anastacia42]

Hi again,

I see that gave you that one on August 30. See how it feels to do it now.

Thanks!

[Allybally]

Ok. Yes will be interesting to do it now.

Thanks
Alan

[Allybally]

Hi Stacy,

Hope you are well.

Can you see now why the content of thought has no meaning? We made it up!

Yes i can see that, thoughts are interpretations or subjective commentary not actual experience so they may not really reflect whats there.

Thoughts exercise:

Where are they coming from and going to?

They don't come from anywhere or go anywhere

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No, the more I look at this the more I see how thoughts appear randomly, and are often related to the situation/surrounding I am in. So I am sitting at my desk and was just trying to see if I could make a thought appear. The only thoughts that came up were of things that I was directly looking at. Or if I am having a quiet period or eyes are closed it can often be something I haven't thought about for a long time or in some cases things that don't make any sense.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No as I have seen, they are random

Can you predict your next thought?

No I can't.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No I can't, I can have negative thoughts and then have further thoughts to rationalise or mitigate the negativeness. The thoughts appear themselves so they would already have occurred, there is no pre-filter on what thoughts occur

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No I can't, as above really.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No I can't

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

no, until the thoughts appear I don't know about them, there is no pre filter so they appear without any control

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

They are random, I think the main issue I had before was that I felt I was solving a problem, that thoughts came in a logical sequence to work out this problem. (I know this is all labelling and language but I'm just using it to illustrate the point). What I can see now is that thoughts are random and that if I am doing a particular task at work, I might have a thought/action about the task then a thought about something else then back to the task. But I can see there is some stimulus involved that directs me back to that task rather than a logical sequence of thoughts. So I might look back at a screen or glance at an email and then I will be doing the next part of the task.

My parents arrive tonight and are staying until Monday so I may be quieter than normal just so you know.

Thanks,
Alan