Seeing through the illusion

[Clearstream]

My apologies for the delay -- I have been traveling, but I am back!

Do not feel bad about the doubts. This is actually perfectly normal, it happens a lot at this stage of the process.

Thank you! I already feel some loosening around the doubt. Let me look in the present moment in reply to your questions!

How do these doubts appear?

Are they in the form of thought, perhaps?

Yes, I can definitely find the doubt in thoughts that arise about this process.

If so where did these doubt-thoughts come from?

They just arise, seemingly out of nowhere. There seems to be a logical progression to thoughts, but if I follow this back, that itself is just a meta-thought itself.

Did “you” choose to have them, or did “you” author the content?

No, "I" did not. Thoughts arise in awareness without any effort from "me" (though in daily life the thoughts arise so fervently that it can be hard to observe this).

And can they be trusted as 100% true & correct if the source is unknown?

It is not possible for me to know whether thoughts are true. The idea that they are correct or incorrect is just another thought.

Is thought ever wrong about things? Particularly with expectations of the future? (a doubt is a negative expectation)

Yes! Going to memory now, I can remember many thoughts about the future from today that turned out to be incorrect.

Are they in the form of emotional feelings?

No, I don't think so. I've been investigating feelings recently, and without going to thought, feelings just seem like sensations. There is no self-evident cause of them, they just are; they just arise. So I don't know how I could attribute this to doubt.

Or do the body sensations actually, really mean nothing at all? Maybe they are just a plain old sensation?

Yes, exactly! Thoughts arise in agreement with this :)

What does the above tell us about the doubt

What IS this doubt?

Doubt is just another drop in the sea of unverifiable thought. Maybe true, maybe not. Unknowable. Not useful.

And what entity is experiencing the doubt, exactly?

That which experiences all thoughts. This empty, no-thing that experiences thoughts, feelings, sensations.

[gondwana]

Good, so it was seen that all thought (including doubting thoughts) are not anything to be concerned with. They arise and go again as they please, no need to assign any truth to them.

It is not possible for me to know whether thoughts are true. The idea that they are correct or incorrect is just another thought.

Indeed! Very good!

That which experiences all thoughts. This empty, no-thing that experiences thoughts, feelings, sensations.

Yes. So is anybody actually there at all?
Is there an experiencer (doer) of these things?
Or, just the experience of things itself and no experiencer?

LOOK now and see for yourself!

[Clearstream]

Yes. So is anybody actually there at all?
Is there an experiencer (doer) of these things?
Or, just the experience of things itself and no experiencer?

LOOK now and see for yourself!

There is no experiencer, no doer. There are concepts that form around this in the mind, but when I look in direct experience, I find nothing, just unfolding.

[gondwana]

There is no experiencer, no doer. There are concepts that form around this in the mind, but when I look in direct experience, I find nothing, just unfolding.

Has there ever been an experiencer, a doer?

[Clearstream]

Has there ever been an experiencer, a doer?

I can't see how that could have ever been the case, no.

[gondwana]

I can't see how that could have ever been the case, no.

“I can’t see how...” sounds like logic/analysis.
Not directly seeing a truth/untruth?

Is there any “self”, any doer, that can be found right now?
Can any “self”, any doer, be found at any time?
Simply LOOK and check if it exists.

[Clearstream]

“I can’t see how...” sounds like logic/analysis.
Not directly seeing a truth/untruth?

Is there any “self”, any doer, that can be found right now?
Can any “self”, any doer, be found at any time?
Simply LOOK and check if it exists.

If I look now, there is no self that I can locate.

Actually, it doesn't feel like there is a sense of "time" at all. The past doesn't really feel "real". I can recall memories, but I feel disassociated from them.

It doesn't make sense how a self could have existed before, but maybe you're right, and I am just using logic? I don't understand how to look in the past.

[gondwana]

If I look now, there is no self that I can locate.

I don't understand how to look in the past.

Actually, it doesn't feel like there is a sense of "time" at all. The past doesn't really feel "real". I can recall memories, but I feel disassociated from them.

Yes! This is all exactly right. You are right at the gate! Just one more little look...

There is NO SUCH THING as time. Time is simply a thought concept, another illusion generated by the mind, that was seen clearly in direct experience now.

There is actually no "past" or "future", only thoughts about them as ideas. ALL direct experience (which is the only thing that can be considered real) occurs in the present moment. If you look at a thought of the "past" right now, it can be seen that even a thought ABOUT the past (or future) occurs in the present moment. So there is no "past" - only thoughts ABOUT a "past", and those thoughts actually occur in the NOW. There is only ever now!

So, indeed there is no way to look in the "past" to see if there ever was a self, because we cannot look at direct experience of the past. It no longer exists. This was seen directly.

Simply LOOK if this "self" exists right now as a real entity -- or is this too only a thought?

[Clearstream]

So, indeed there is no way to look in the "past" to see if there ever was a self, because we cannot look at direct experience of the past. It no longer exists. This was seen directly.

Yes, I see this clearly.

Simply LOOK if this "self" exists right now as a real entity -- or is this too only a thought?

In direct experience, there is only experiencing. A thought, a warm sensation, some hearing, pressure... No "self" to be found at all.

[gondwana]

In direct experience, there is only experiencing. A thought, a warm sensation, some hearing, pressure... No "self" to be found at all.

Good!

So if there is no "self", what are you?
LOOK.

[gondwana]

Or to put it a simpler way :)
What remains?

[Clearstream]

So if there is no "self", what are you?
LOOK.

What remains?

There is no self, just experiencing. I am that which flows with all of this. There is seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling... but there's nothing behind it. It's not happening to "someone". Maybe "I" am nothing at all? It seems impossible to know what I am.

Looking around the room now, I don't even experience "objects", there is just experiencing.

[gondwana]

There is no self, just experiencing. I am that which flows with all of this. There is seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling... but there's nothing behind it. It's not happening to "someone".

Beautiful :)

Looking around the room now, I don't even experience "objects", there is just experiencing.

Yes! Objects are entirely conceptual.

When a table appears in experience, what makes it a table?
What makes it an object at all?
Thought!
The mind is a labelling machine, using thought to constantly label everything that appears. That's its job.
But once we look beneath thought, prior to it -- it is clear no object is really there at all.
What makes it a table? Four legs?
What if we remove one? Now is it a broken table?
What if we remove one more leg? Now what is it?
What if the world had never invented four-legged tables and only ever knew three-legged tables?
When did it stop being a table?
When we decided it did!
With some past thought, when we defined the concept of "table" to mean a certain shape and topology (four legs etc).
So we could now say ok, it's actually just some pieces of wood and some glue.
Ok, but then what is wood? It's just some biological cells.
Who called it wood? We did.
Now the object of "wood" just vanished.
And so on....all the way down.

Maybe "I" am nothing at all? It seems impossible to know what I am.

Well, there is an undeniable experience of being present.
It is there right now.
Could what you are be just pure knowing of experience?
Some may call it "awareness". But not to mean awareness as some object.
Just aware-NESS. The "is-ness" of being. The knowing.
Is there any gap between the knowing of an experience, and the experience itself?
Take colour - is there any gap between the experience of the colour red, and the KNOWING of experiencing red?
Or are they the same thing?
And isn't this also true for all other experience? It is inseparable from knowing it, from being aware of it.
So in a sense, we might poetically say, you are both nothing (since it cannot be found as a tangible entity), and everything (since it is inseparable from all of experience), all at once?

[Clearstream]

Hello, my friend! Very much looking forward to replying to your message :)

When a table appears in experience, what makes it a table?
What makes it an object at all?
Thought!
The mind is a labelling machine, using thought to constantly label everything that appears. That's its job.

Yes, yes, so much labeling! I've been noticing over the past few weeks that especially when walking outside, or even just getting ready in the morning, the mind gets quiet and there is just experiencing. It's like the conceptual veil is, for a brief time, pierced. The labeling (mostly) stops.

I know that, in truth, all experience is like this, but so often it's obscured behind so many concepts and thinking. My line of work is very conceptual and hectic, and I find it hard to see this there, but outdoors and around the house... I'm free!

But once we look beneath thought, prior to it -- it is clear no object is really there at all.
What makes it a table? Four legs?
What if we remove one? Now is it a broken table?
What if we remove one more leg? Now what is it?
What if the world had never invented four-legged tables and only ever knew three-legged tables?
When did it stop being a table?
When we decided it did!
With some past thought, when we defined the concept of "table" to mean a certain shape and topology (four legs etc).
So we could now say ok, it's actually just some pieces of wood and some glue.
Ok, but then what is wood? It's just some biological cells.
Who called it wood? We did.
Now the object of "wood" just vanished.
And so on....all the way down.

Indeed. I love the practice of searching to find the thing outside experience. So it's a table? Why? Because I see it. Well I'm just seeing an array of color. (But really? No, color doesn't exist outside of the seeing itself. It is connected completely.) Okay, but it feels like a table. Well first of all, who says what a table feels like? It's just a mental association we made. In feeling the table, there is just the sensation of hardness. (And no, hardness doesn't exist outside of the feeling of it, as far as I can tell.) It seems so real because of the confluence of all of this seemingly consistent sensorial data, but there is nothing consistent about it -- it's just thought tying together various experiences!

And anyway, what are cells? I can't find cells in my direct experience. I might read about them, but that is just seeing and (mental) hearing. I might see them through a microscope, but... that's just more seeing! It's like there is nothing outside this experiencing whatsoever. Not that I can find. Not that I have evidence for.

Well, there is an undeniable experience of being present.
It is there right now.

Yes! It's not "I think therefore I am" ... it has nothing to do with thinking! Thinking is just on experience. It's that limitless container of thinking. The presence of experiencing.

Could what you are be just pure knowing of experience?
Some may call it "awareness". But not to mean awareness as some object.
Just aware-NESS. The "is-ness" of being. The knowing.

I am that which experiences. Yes, I get it. It's obvious. That which is here, present. Everything is just another experience.

Is there any gap between the knowing of an experience, and the experience itself?
Take colour - is there any gap between the experience of the colour red, and the KNOWING of experiencing red?
Or are they the same thing?

haha, I just realized that I commented on this before getting to this part of your message!

Exactly, there is just the experiencing. "redness" can't be found, it's just a label for a particular experience.

And isn't this also true for all other experience? It is inseparable from knowing it, from being aware of it.
So in a sense, we might poetically say, you are both nothing (since it cannot be found as a tangible entity), and everything (since it is inseparable from all of experience), all at once?

Everything and nothing. I've never really understood that claim until now. I get it. I can't point a finger at what I am, but nor can I find anything outside of the flow of experience!

[gondwana]

Haha, you've got it. Welcome! :D

Yes, I get it. It's obvious.

...said every single person who has ever had a genuine "spiritual awakening" experience!! ;)

so often it's obscured behind so many concepts and thinking. My line of work is very conceptual and hectic, and I find it hard to see this there, but outdoors and around the house... I'm free!

Don't sweat that. Labelling will always continue. Self-referential thoughts reduce in time, and may or may not stop or minimise completely, depending on the path taken. But the point is NOT to stop thinking - it is simply to KNOW that thinking/labelling can be seen through and discarded any time desired or necessary. Thinking is just a tool, that can still be chosen for certain tasks. Pragmatism is best here.

Everything and nothing. I've never really understood that claim until now. I get it. I can't point a finger at what I am, but nor can I find anything outside of the flow of experience!

Yes!

So how does it feel to be nobody?
How does it feel to have no story?