You can start here :)

[dreamer]

Hi Jay

One quick thing before hand - What or who is it that speaks? If it isn't a me, or some kind of central intelligence connected to the body, mind and universe, what is it that decides to speak?

Look at it. When you look do it with out labeling things, do not name the feelings, sensations, observations. Just look. The moment there is a label, thought comes in - and thoughts are not welcome in looking since they bring assumptions, judgements, doubts and expectations, which all is thoughts arising. Look at the proces of speaking are there really 'something' deciding to speak or does speaking happen?

Thoughts come up on their own, and I could't tell you what thoughts are coming next

Exactly!

However, I can decide to say a word in my head so to speak, which means then I can tell you whats coming next. Or I can decide that I will say something in one second and then just top prove that I'm in control of this particular function, I can decide not to say it instead.

Thoughts come up and instantly there is the thought 'I thought this', 'this is under my control' But how can you decide the next thought, when there is no me/I? Which thoughts are under control and which are not?

I find it very hard to see that this is happening without a command from me.

Look at thought and choice again. When you get up tomorrow. Look at the whole proces from awakening to eating breakfast. Eyes open, out of bed, washing, dressing, whatever happens look at the thoughts and choices are they connected to what happens, how does choosing happen, are things done in connection to thoughts and/or choosing? Not what you THINK happens. What you see happens when you look. Let me know :)

[dreamer]

Hi Jay

Me/I does not exist. What you write here seems to be a mix of looking and assuming. You are in NO control because YOU do not exist. What happens when you read this. I am interested in all thoughts, feelings, sensations in you, in the moment - and later if anything new arises.

I think there does seem to be the ability for "me" as a unit of intelligence to give commands, choose where or what to focus on, and say or think words. This "me" which is just a label really, and not what we have taken it to be, does still simply point to the capability to talk, consciously think (i.e - i'm now going to think about plans for such and such, or i'm going to sit down and think about something in particular. This is conscious and chosen thought rather than thought that just comes up on it's own. They seem to be very different. One can be chosen and started/stopped on command, and the other is just automatic and impersonal. So me, is a thought, but it's a thought which relates to the processing function that we all have as an individuated and seemingly separate point of consciousness.

Keep looking :)
Vivi

[Not me]

You are in NO control because YOU do not exist. What happens when you read this.

First I notice that there is smiling. No fear inside but a calmness. Then a voice says "WHO does not exist?"
It carries on "Who are you talking to if there is no one here who exists!?"
More thought " I might not be anything you can see, but I'm here!"

Next, there is an asking (who does this asking, is it just the brain on it's own, talking to itself?)
"How do I know I exist?"
Next a thought says "who's asking right now? This very question, who is asking?"
How can a brain talk to a thought?
More thought "Who is the one trying to figure all this out? Is it all just happening? If so why is there a feeling of control?"

I'm now going to spend an hour tidying up the house without labelling or jumping on thought trains. After typing this, there was a thought which said who is now going to tidy up the house? And who has just decided to do it? Also, who won't be jumping on thought trains? Who is there to decide to jump on one or not? Next thought says "good question!" haha! This is crazy :D

[Not me]

how does choosing happen, are things done in connection to thoughts and/or choosing? Not what you THINK happens. What you see happens when you look. Let me know :)

Iv'e noticed that choices or decisions are made, and then thought comes in to narrate about it and stamp it's claim on it. Or a thought comes, and then a choice is made based on the thought.

Sometimes I notice things just happen with no perceived thought or choice, just a seemingly spontaneous "doing"
Perhaps there was a thought about it but "I" wasn't aware. Who wasn't aware of it??

There can be perceived awareness and full immersion in what ever is happening one minute and lost in a trance the next with no perception of even being in the trance. What happens? Who or what is it that has the ability to keep thoughts held back and to look closely at the here and now?

I noticed that if a thought happens and it is given attention (who gives attention?) then emotions and body sensations can happen, and the thought trail deepens and often drags the past in. I can then say right I'll practice not jumping on the thoughts or giving them attention. And then I can literally feel the thoughts being held back.
But what is this ability to give or not give attention to thoughts? This is important for me because everything always comes back to this - WHO OR WHAT DECIDED TO GIVE OR NOT GIVE ATTENTION TO THOUGHTS, AND WHO OR WHAT WANTS TO LOSE THEIR BELIEF IN A SEPARATE ENTITY CALLED "I"? :) Is this really all just unfolding with no free choice on "my" part what so ever? Thats bloody awesome! But I still have a little way to go before it's undeniable and settled for me.

So choosing to believe or not believe in a thought must be a thought itself, often one that happens on the subconscious level it seems, as there is no awareness of the thought sometimes. However, if a thought cannot think, how on earth can it believe? And if it isn't a thought which believes or doesn't believe, then what is this mechanism which decides to either believe in something or not? It seems like I have the ability to believe. Although the belief would be based on past conditioning, The option to believe or disbelieve seems to me a function that can be operated from this body and mind, even though there is no separate "me" doing it.
It's funny to think that a thought can happen and then another thought can believe in it!! But if a thought can't think, how does a thought believe?

[Not me]

I'm starting to notice a bigger gap before the I jumps in to claim the thoughts as something to do with me. It's almost as if I can sense that the thought is coming, but something stops it. Instead I'm left aware that I have just prevented feelings and a story that would have fired up and probably kept me occupied for a while!

Iv'e noticed there can be a knowing or realisation outside of thought. Seems very light but very sure and real.

[Not me]

Here you say that 'I' has the capacity to use thought.

Now - how can a thought have capacity to use thought? If I is a word/a thought how can it also be a physical manifestation and have an unmanifested quality? What is it that you know about 'I'? Peel of every single bit of believe.

It's not the word or thought of I that has the ability to think, it's what the word and thought I are pointing to which has the ability to use thought. So as I said, I is pointing to the manifest and unmanifest - I.e body and mind along with the unseen such as thought. It's not that I is real, it's what I refers to. But I no longer think of "myself" as an I any more so this is good. :)

[dreamer]

Hi Jay!

What excellent responses!

Is this really all just unfolding with no free choice on "my" part what so ever? Thats bloody awesome!

It really is awesome isn't it! And at the same time it simply is. :)
It is like a dreamer, a dream and a dreamcharacter. What does this mean?

But I no longer think of "myself" as an I any more so this is good.

Is there a "me," at all, anywhere, in any way, shape, or form? Was there ever?

See you :)
Vivi







Keep looking!

[dreamer]

Sorry - this seems to have been forgotten:

WHO OR WHAT DECIDED TO GIVE OR NOT GIVE ATTENTION TO THOUGHTS, AND WHO OR WHAT WANTS TO LOSE THEIR BELIEF IN A SEPARATE ENTITY CALLED "I"?

No one, nobody, nothing!

Haha ;)

Vivi

[Not me]

Is there a "me," at all, anywhere, in any way, shape, or form? Was there ever?

There is no me. There has been identification with thoughts about a me. But when looking, I cannot pin point a me anywhere. Many thoughts continue to emerge about the story of me, but It's all becoming very faint. The heaviness of the baggage around the fictitious me seems much lighter now. It's still there but very light. I'm aware of situations seeming lighter and I am having different feelings and reactions/responses. There have been quite a few that iv'e noticed. I'm even telling other people about this (although they prob think Iv'e lost it!)

From childhood we have had countless thoughts, but there is one which has never changed and that is the one which includes an I into all experience. This thought I has taken ownership of the body and mind and claims to be the one in control! haha! It's funny to see we never had any control over anything. And all the stress that was caused with worry and guilt and doubt and shame...bloody heel this is absolutely crazy!

It was a very convincing illusion of control. Thoughts over and over again to reinforce the story of me. It seems like it obscures the truth, but the truth never went anywhere. There was no one to be free'd, just life happening and a sense of me that it's happening to or for. Now it seems like it's just sensing and being lived. No need for a plan but still thoughts happen which may cause a plan to be made. It's mind blowing really, and I can see why people are so afraid to allow themselves to really see this. Before it's seen to be what it is, we think that we are agreeing to become powerless, and so fear kicks in to protect us. There is no-one resisting, just fear playing it's roll and the organism responding accordingly.

I don't feel much different but at the same time I feel totally free. A thought comes in just now and said "I wonder if this will last!" Then "I wonder if there is still a subconscious belief in a separate me?" Then the noticing that those thoughts have just occurred but they weren't generated by me and there is no me who would take them so seriously as before. haha! Imagine how the world would be if everyone could realise they don't exist!! LOL :D

[Not me]

Iv'e just had this experience - Was making something to eat but staying fairly aware on whats happening. Now this is the interesting part - It was like I could sense a thought somewhere in the background that was a claim of ownership to what was happening, but at the same time the thought was not actually coming forward. I could actually get a sense that the thought which was so faint and not coming forward had a feeling attached to it. This was the feeling synonymous with the full story of Jay and all the baggage it holds. I intuitively felt that every time this thought comes forward it also brings within that feeling (not a very pleasant feeling but it's always been there so never knew any different)
For the first time, I had a full experience and noticed what was happening but without all hose feelings attached to the I which come with it. Although no ownership was claimed, there was still the residue and the perception that there was once this concept of me who used to take itself so seriously!

I think we've made some good progress here. Although I see that nobody has done anything! This is a bit like lucid dreaming. I remember in my lucid dreams I would always run around telling everyone it's a dream. This is the same feeling. :D

[Not me]

Tears of Joy on the realisation that there is nothing to do and that anything that is to be done is all in hand.
No future to plan although thoughts about planning futures may arise, or futures wil unfold without plans, who knows hey? Not ME thats for sure! :)

I laugh at a thought which says - To worry about any future now, would be like worrying about the sea not being there tomorrow!

[Not me]

There was a feeling of gratefulness, and then a thought saying you should thank Vivi, and then another thought said who should thank who? It's one thing happening here. No one to thank anyone else!

But still thankyou happens. Thankyou. :)

[Not me]

There's the feeling of wanting to know how this will translate into other areas of life. So thoughts about future still occurring. But no heavy charge on it. No feeling of rushing out to experience loads of situations because there is the complete confidence that all the necessary situations will occur and thats the way it can only ever be. Now this is liberation motherfuckers!! HAHAHAHAHAHAH! And how Sorry is typed, but not meant! ;) LOL oh my god.

[Not me]

That was interesting! The word myself feels a bit empty now, but "I" guess there is still residue and possibly more. It will be tested and known when it happens. There is no anxiety, impatience or any wanting to know anything right now. But instead a kind of excitement in not knowing whats gonna happen next!

[dreamer]

Hi Jay

Hahaha! This is so great to read :)

I have to ask 3 'other guides' (haha ;) as if there were others) if they think you have passed the gateless gate. In order to do that you must answer the two questions belove. If the other guides feel you have passed you will be 'blued' and get access to threads now hidden to you and to groups on facebook where you can meet other 'passers' and to the group Beyond the Gate for 'aftercare'. If you want you can also be a guide.

How would you describe this to somebody who is very interested, but has never heard about this illusion.

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Thank you also happens here :)
Vivi