Understanding but no perception shift

[Verananda]

Hi Barry,

that sounds realy good!

There is no separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form and there never was one.
Can you give me a big fat YES to this?
100% ?
Any doubt?

Is there anything we should look at again? Any open question from your side?

warmly verananda

[ElderPrice]

Hey Verananda 😊

There is no separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form and there never was one.
Can you give me a big fat YES to this?
100% ?
Any doubt?

Well, intellectually I can say big fat yes! This has become very clear.

However, in day to day life, it's more of a skinny maybe. There appears to be these old Barry patterns that 'take over' . For example, someone may accuse me 'unfairly' and ' I' will be highly offended. 'I' may get hurt by comment made about 'me' But if there is no 'I' who is being offened? It feels like an 'I' is responding to outside stimuli. If there is no 'I' why is there this defensive response?

So my understanding is a lot clearer now but still no significant perception shift. I don't love everyone, I still get annoyed at people , I still feel stressed by work pressures. I guess there were some underlying expectations in there, hey?

When I say 'shift' I mean that I still fall back into an old belief system. I know there is no I or falling but the understanding from looking seems short lived. I read our posts again and realised that you had clearly answered all of my questions.

. It seems paradox. I also work as therapist and coach, and I know this: You find out that there is no control of thought and next day you go to work and tell your clients: "Take care of your thoughts! If you produce too much negative thoughts you get stuck in your depression". Don't care about this paradox. It will be clearer later on.

I really appreciated you addressing this issue. However it is still not 100% clear. Are we using different language depending on the 'distance we are away' When I used there chair analogy you mentioned that it's all about distance. So at one level, there is no I (like there is no chair only atoms and spooky stuff) but at another functional level people need to believe in an I in order to address certain mind conditions (e.g. depression) in order not to suffer?

. And one more to this: If you have responsibility for something, that means you have to be in control of it, is that right? no control -> no responsbility ?

I agree with this statement but in reality my boss will believe that I am responsible..

If this is it, how does one live, choose, decide? Do I sit on the couch and await inspiration? Bit confused on what to do. Chop wood carry water I suppose?

Deeply grateful
B

[Verananda]

Hi Barry,

i'm bussy today so I pick up some of your points here and will go into others tomorrow.
It is good that you have addressed the ambiguous points ....

After seeing through the illusion it is important to verify in "real live" that we have not only made fun experiments.
Often there are areas that are particularly persistent. But seeing through the illusion can not be undone.
We do not need a "intellectually big fat yes" - we need one that is seen.

There is a contradiction in your words. You found out that there is no Self, no control over thoughts and actions etc ....
But "in reality" you can choose to sit on the couch and await inspiration or not?
.. "in reality" you can influence what your boss is doing?
.. "in reality" you can choose what you think and tell your clients?
Try this with a few everyday things this weekend and LOOK what realy is true!
Is there an I that chose to drink coffee or tea or does it just happen ..... etc

... but at another functional level people need to believe in an I in order to address certain mind conditions (e.g. depression) in order not to suffer?

... maybe they are suffering because they believe in the illusion of an "I"?

love verananda

[Verananda]

.. it is not a question of distant. Two things got mixed up here. I I'll come back to it tomorrow.

There is no seperate self, no I ...
That is true. No question of distant. No trick. No philosophical understanding that helps unravel.
It can be seen here and now. And it is very simple. Much easier than the explanations around it.
Sometimes too simple.

[Verananda]

... one more ... :-)

Well, intellectually I can say big fat yes!

You did these experiments with thoughts, hand, number, .....
You direcly saw the truth in it, right?
Read your email from yesterday again and tell me: What part of the hole game is "seeing truth" and what ist the intellectual one?

[ElderPrice]

Hello Verananda :)

. But seeing through the illusion cannot be undone.
We do not need an "intellectually big fat yes" - we need one that is seen.

.
Excellent!
This is where I am stuck. I want a seen that is seen not believed.
When I look there is no I and no controller of thoughts or feelings or even my hand. I am not able to recognise this outside of those areas explored.

There is a contradiction in your words. You found out that there is no Self, no control over thoughts and actions etc ....
But "in reality" you can choose to sit on the couch and await inspiration or not?
.. "in reality" you can influence what your boss is doing?
.. "in reality" you can choose what you think and tell your clients?

I'm a multitude of contradictions :) When I spoke of reality in the paragraph above I think I am trying to figure out how to live with this new perception ... mmm as I say this it feels like an idea or a thought but not a knowing from being seen. If I had truly seen I would know how to live???

In my experience, there is an intellectual understanding and a practical undertaking that seems to require different language to describe what is happening. For example, I understand that there is no I and that I am not making choices. However, when my boss asks me to take a therapy group, she has expectations about what I will do in that group. No, I cannot control my boss but at a practical level, I need to talk and behave in certain ways that others can understand. I can't say to her "there is no I and they can't control their thoughts, life is just happening" I have to use appropriate language. It seems to me to be like the person who asks the physicist what's that? a Chair? No its a collection of quarks, some Higgs boson and other particles in superposition.

Language appears to be a barrier for me. An analogy is like I believe in the quantum level (no I no controller) but I only see a chair,( life functioning as if something is in control).

I see that there is no controller but I struggle to know how to live and communicate.

Read your email from yesterday again and tell me: What part of the hole game is "seeing truth" and what ist the intellectual one?

what is the difference between seeing the truth and knowing the truth ??? I'm a bit stuck here too.

But if there is no 'I' who is being offended? It feels like an 'I' is responding to outside stimuli. If there is no 'I' why is there this defensive response?

Maybe I am expecting something that isn't there??? Maybe there will always be a response to stimuli. Maybe this is life ???
doing what life does??

maybe they are suffering because they believe in the illusion of an "I"?

I think this is true!

Again, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to support me through this challenging process.

warmly
b

[Verananda]

Hi Barry

ok, we start with this. Its most importend at the moment:

Read your email from yesterday again and tell me: What part of the hole game is "seeing truth" and what ist the intellectual one?

what is the difference between seeing the truth and knowing the truth ??? I'm a bit stuck here too.

There is a big difference between knowing and seeing:
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:
Sitting in a room, curtains closed, you wonder what the weather is like outside. You can
think about it, look it up on the internet, watch the forecast on TV, call your boss and ask
her - or you can simply open the curtains and have a look.
Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.
For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear
about this difference. It is very good that you have asked this question!
Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not
interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on
in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct
experience in the moment.

So if you look in direct experience, you can find the seen, the heard, the (bodily) sensed, the smelled, the tasted and (observed) thought. This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual / direct experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is
always here.
With the weather-experiment above, these thoughts about how the weather might be are known, but what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience and we don't know if they are true, until we open the curtain and have a look.

If you remember our experiments with the hand palm up/down and the other one with the number, what was realy seen in this experiment? Your answeres were pretty good, so now its not about finding something new. Its about remembering what you already have seen!

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

warmly verananda

[Verananda]

oh, I see, one part from my last post was not quite clear, I try again, it is important:
With the weather-experiment above, these thoughts (about how the weather might be) can be seen in direct experience. There are this thoughts. This is true. But what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience and we don't know if they are true, we don't know if the content of this thoughts are true, until we open the curtain and have a look.

[ElderPrice]

Hi Verananda 😊

That was an excellent example. Aha! Knowing is experienced directly through the senses. So if I see a chair, I only sense colors, chair is a thought concept. If I sit on a chair, I only experience sensations. Is that correct?

. Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not
interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on

Okay this has really cleared something's up for me.

Its about remembering what you already have seen!

yeah I think that's the problem.
I was quite confused there for a couple of days. I need to remember what I've seen.

Thanks again
B

[Verananda]

Hi Barry,

yes I think you got it!

That was an excellent example. Aha! Knowing is experienced directly through the senses.

As used here in the example, knowing meens thinking + the thought "this is true".
e.g. your boss tells you the weather is bad. You think "yes its true, she always tells the truth"
but is it really true? You can only check it if you open the curtain, look out of the window and see what is true.
"Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind."
Expiriencing directly through the senses we use "seeing" in DE.
But it seems to me, that you got it and this is only a language thing?
Because:

So if I see a chair, I only sense colors, chair is a thought concept. If I sit on a chair, I only experience sensations. Is that correct?

thats correct! Chair is a lable, a thought concept.
You can do the same with your body. Close your eyes and look in direct experience what you can find where you assume your foot might be. What do you find in DE? Can you realy find a "foot"?

Its about remembering what you already have seen!

yeah I think that's the problem.
I was quite confused there for a couple of days. I need to remember what I've seen.

yes. well, strictly speaking, remembering is also thinking. If you want to be absolutely sure, you can always look again here and now. And I guess you will find the same? Can you find the answer to this question by thinking? Or do you have to repeat the experiment and look what you find? ..... You have to look here and now again and again until it is totaly beliefed! Thinking about it only brings confusion as you have already found out! :-)

For the next few days, please observe during everyday life:
what has remained the same?
what has changed?
Do it relaxed and curious. There is no right or wrong answer.
report daily what you have found.

warmly
verananda

[ElderPrice]

Hey Verananda :)

You can do the same with your body. Close your eyes and look in direct experience what you can find where you assume your foot might be. What do you find in DE? Can you really find a "foot"?

Yes, did that exercise and only a bunch of sensations - no foot.

For the next few days, please observe during everyday life:
what has remained the same?
what has changed?
Do it relaxed and curious. There is no right or wrong answer.
report daily what you have found.

Day 1
I have a man flu (deadly) :) noticing that less tolerance of external stimulus. Light, noise, other people. there were sensations arising that were unpleasant. Noticing lots of negative thoughts about others then lots of negative thoughts about "myself" for thinking those thoughts. Laughed at this. They went away.

Today everything feels intense. A story is made up that this is because "I" am unwell, the mind likes that story and sensations of suffering reduces.

If I slow the process down a bit I realise that there is no grumpiness only unpleasant sensations.

It seems that everything remains the same. The same things happen but there is no I to control it.
There does seem to be more grumpiness, not shown to others but felt. ( I'm hoping that this is not a liberated state - grumpy) :) Overall, all the practical stuff got done with no thought.

warmly yours
barry

[Verananda]

Hi Barry,

I hope you survive(d) your man flu and you feel better!

Yes, did that exercise and only a bunch of sensations - no foot.

Yes, thats true. Foot is just a lable!

Thank you for day1-report!

If I slow the process down a bit I realise that there is no grumpiness only unpleasant sensations.

Yes. We find only unpleasant sensations and a lot of thoughts around it.
Anything more?
What is with "Barry"?
Is it more than a lable, a thought in this game?

It seems that everything remains the same. The same things happen but there is no I to control it.
There does seem to be more grumpiness, not shown to others but felt. ( I'm hoping that this is not a liberated state - grumpy) :) Overall, all the practical stuff got done with no thought.

That sounds good!
Liberation is not a state, it is beyond all states and at the same time, it includes all states, including the grumpy one :-)
It meens exactly what you found out: there is no grumpiness only unpleasant sensations, a lot of thoughts, no I inside, no control over it ..... and sometimes at this point relaxation and also laughing (as you described) comes into the game ....
the whole effort ... for what?

Im looking forward to your Day-2- report!

warmly verananda

[ElderPrice]

Dear Verananda 😊
I survived!!! Well actually 'i' is struggling a bit to survive..😊

Day 2 report

What is with "Barry"?

Barry is just a label. An idea, a social concept. Interesting today at work when I arrived my boss asked me to do a 2 hour presentation on a new topic that I had nothing prepared for. The usual reaction to this situation was extreme anxiety. I only had 20 minutes to prepare. Today however there was no story about the situation, preparation took place then the session began. There was more freedom and clarity today than in most of my presentations without an anxious stressed Barry controlling it. Very interesting. There was even time to look around the room to see what it's really going on with very few lables. Even though there was still sickness ( deadly man flu symptom's) and increased external pressure to perform , there was a peace about today

Weirdly, a lot more things got done today with less effort and a lot less stress.

That lack of ' I' ness is becoming clearer.

During meditation there was a deeper awareness of thoughts, feelings, sensations and it was clear that they are not who I am.

Thank you for your persistence, because you are there asking questions and responding , that helps me to continue to look each day.

Gratefully yours
B

[Verananda]

Hi Barry,

wow .... that sounds very very good!

Lets see what day 3 brings - I'm very curious about your next report!

love verananda

[ElderPrice]

Good morning :)
Started a new contract today and had to go to a new part of town, talk with new managers about their roles and in a psychological area that I am not familiar with. Normally I would have been worrying all night get up extremely early arrive an hour before etc. But today it all happened without a controller.... It was extremely peaceful. I had no idea about what to say but everything just flowed without effort or judgement.
That's different that's not MY normal! Usually, there is self-reflection in a good but sometimes not so good way. At the end of each session, everyone stated that it was very helpful to speak with me. This information was volunteered by them.

It feels like there is more time. All the same practical stuff gets done but with less effort and a lot less angst...
hope you are well :)
b