It is what it is...

[Ngakawau]

Hi Dave ...

Thanks for your patience ...

Great stuff! So what is the thought label/concept "choice" actually referring to? What does it imply...?

The implication in the concept of "choice" is that there's a conscious entity making a decision (yes/no, left/right, blue/green) and that it could go either way as a result of some kind of reasoning. The experience is that, that isn't the case. 'Yes' or 'No' just "happens".

But can you explain, from your own experience, what exactly this "sense" of self consists of? Where is it "sensed" this self? How does the illusion work?

I'm sitting at a table, hearing sounds of traffic, feeling the textures and temperatures, seeing the light and objects present, smelling and tasting coffee ... all of which I think of as "me" experiencing the world, life. The assumption is that "someone" is "doing" the hearing, feeling, seeing...etc
Whereas, in actuality ... if there was an "organic" robot sitting here with the same "sensing" equipment but no "sense of self" ... the situation would be almost, if not exactly similar.... the same sounds, textures, temperatures etc would be present and "experienced" .... but without a "me" ...
There isn't a self actually "sensed" anywhere. Because thoughts occur in my brain I've imagined "self" as a sort of invisible "ghost in the machine" ... I think it's an unconscious/habitual assumption I've never questioned.

As always, thank you ...

All the very, very best,

Rod

[DrWilko]

Hi Rod,

First:

Thanks for your patience ...

Not at all - no patience involved. It's a pleasure!

The implication in the concept of "choice" is that there's a conscious entity making a decision (yes/no, left/right, blue/green) and that it could go either way as a result of some kind of reasoning. The experience is that, that isn't the case. 'Yes' or 'No' just "happens".

Absolutely! So, just to take this one last step further, what does the concept or label choice or intention actually refer to if not will happen/does happen/happened?

I'm sitting at a table, hearing sounds of traffic, feeling the textures and temperatures, seeing the light and objects present, smelling and tasting coffee ... all of which I think of as "me" experiencing the world, life. The assumption is that "someone" is "doing" the hearing, feeling, seeing...

In "sitting at a table", what says you are "at" a table?

Are you hearing sounds? What exactly is hearing them? Look for where the hearing of sound begins. Can it be found? Is there sound as well as hearing?

Likewise with sensation - how is it known there are textures and temperatures? What do they actually consist of and can that which experiences them be found? If not, where does this assumption appear to arise?

Likewise with smelling, tasting.

Where and how does this assumption that someone is "doing" these things arise? Does it make any difference if I say "experiencing" these things instead of "doing" these things?

if there was an "organic" robot sitting here with the same "sensing" equipment but no "sense of self" ... the situation would be almost, if not exactly similar.... the same sounds, textures, temperatures etc would be present and "experienced" .... but without a "me" ...

What you think they would be experienced by? In the organic robot analogy, is the organic robot collecting data about experience? In this analogy isn't that the same as saying the self is witness to experience?

Let's be really clear. I'm interested in your responses when you turn off the analogies and imagined scenarios and focus on what can be found to be true in your experience right now. That's what we mean when we say complete honesty. I can provide some exercises to help focus on the pointers I've given you - but I somehow feel that you are discovering for yourself where and how to look to see this clearly, so I'm just going to push you a bit, if that's okay.

Be 100 percent honest from your experience only what seems true when you look right now.

If it's not clear, take your time and try again.

If an analogy springs to mind, rather than try to apply the analogy to what you think the experience is, go back to the experience and answer from it as directly and rawly as you can, as far as language allows.

I look forward to hearing back from you.

All the best,
Dave

[Ngakawau]

Hi Dave ...

Be 100 percent honest from your experience only what seems true when you look right now.

Got that ....Ok, ... I'll come back to you soon,

All the best,

Rod

[Ngakawau]

Good Morning Dave,

It's a lovely morning in Aotearoa...

Are you hearing sounds? What exactly is hearing them? Look for where the hearing of sound begins. Can it be found? Is there sound as well as hearing?
Likewise with sensation - how is it known there are textures and temperatures? What do they actually consist of and can that which experiences them be found? If not, where does this assumption appear to arise?Likewise with smelling, tasting.
Where and how does this assumption that someone is "doing" these things arise? Does it make any difference if I say "experiencing" these things instead of "doing" these things?

The idea that because "hearing" is happening, there must be a "hearer" is just an assumption. There isn't a central entity existing somewhere ... A sound causes hearing to happen. There isn't a "listener".
It's the same with all other senses...
There is sitting but no-one sits, hearing but no-one hears, seeing but no-one sees, reading but no-one reads, thinking but no-one thinks, (Descartes didn’t do us any favours).
I think the illusion of a "self" (in my case) occurred due to memory and a way of thinking fostered by our cultural upbringing.

Right now, I can see(?) that there just isn't "anyone" in control as it were however, life doesn't fall apart ... everything continues to happen as it did because in actuality, that's how it's always been. Nothing's changed.

Thank you Dave,

All the very best,

Rod

[DrWilko]

Hi Rod,

Good to hear back from you!

Is there sound as well as hearing?

This wasn't really answered.

Can you read back through the whole thread? Every question (with every question mark, includng the follow up questions) is there for a reason. Please make sure you have answered them from your experience.

Find some quiet time and investigate. For example: is there sound as well as hearing? Can you find them both? What is the actual experience. The experience when you look not the idea that occurs when you think about it.

Please do that with every question, and every follow up question!

Thanks!

Dave

[DrWilko]

Hi Rod,

How is it going? Let me know when you can if you are still exploring the questions. If it helps, I am happy to provide exercises for each area I'd like you to look at.

All best wishes,
Dave

[Ngakawau]

Good Morning Dave,

Sorry I've not posted in the last couple of days... I followed your suggestion and took some quiet time ....life is hectic at the moment (when is iit not) ,,, selling/buying my house and winding up my business ... nevertheless, yes I'm continuing to look at the questions...

In "sitting at a table", what says you are "at" a table?

The way of thinking is what says I'm "at" the table ...there's a kind of thought/thinking that talks as if "I'm" doing the process the body is engaged in ... "I'm ....walking, running drinking" etc ... in reality, all that's happening is the body doing what it does ...no "I" involved....

I'll continue exploring and getting back to you in short bursts if that's ok.

All the best,

Rod

[DrWilko]

Hi again Rod,

I'll continue exploring and getting back to you in short bursts if that's ok.

Perfect!

In "sitting at a table", what says you are "at" a table?

The way of thinking is what says I'm "at" the table ...there's a kind of thought/thinking that talks as if "I'm" doing the process the body is engaged in ... "I'm ....walking, running drinking" etc ... in reality, all that's happening is the body doing what it does ...no "I" involved....

Yes, and this is assuming there is a body and a table too! Or any "activity" - waiting, eating etc. There is a seeming continuity, a self that moves from point a to point b in time/space. Focus on the moment itself. What actually is there; where does the sense of continuity arise?

I'll try to minimise the questions as you move through, and it's fine to post shorter responses to one question at a time if you prefer! Everyone has a different approach...

All best wishes,

Dave

[Ngakawau]

Hi Dave ...

Yes, and this is assuming there is a body and a table too! Or any "activity" - waiting, eating etc. There is a seeming continuity, a self that moves from point a to point b in time/space. Focus on the moment itself. What actually is there; where does the sense of continuity arise?

Hmmm ... I'm grappling with this a bit ... "My" mind "remembers" places, objects, activities which it labels as being in the past...there are thoughts, "I" was there, "I" did that" ... "Now I am here, doing this"
Earlier, I wrote "as events flow" but there are no "separate events" are there? Just flow ...The "I" thought seems to be the constan passing through them...
Sorry ...no...I don't think I'm seeeing it ....or does the sense of continuity arise from memory?

All the best,

Rod

[Ngakawau]

Hi Dave...

Are you hearing sounds? What exactly is hearing them? Look for where the hearing of sound begins. Can it be found? Is there sound as well as hearing?

I see what you're pointing at ...he hearing is what happens ...there isn't a separate 'sound' followed by 'hearing' .... The experience is hearing ... that's all...

All the best,

Rod

[Ngakawau]

Hi Dave ....

Still exploring this....

Yes, and this is assuming there is a body and a table too! Or any "activity" - waiting, eating etc. There is a seeming continuity, a self that moves from point a to point b in time/space. Focus on the moment itself. What actually is there; where does the sense of continuity arise?

Do you have an exercise you think might help me to see this more clearly? .... Focusing on the moment, there are sounds, movement, objects, etc ....the seeming continuity ... it happens ... my mind thinks of a past, present, future, which gives a sense of continuity, progression, from...to... but it really isn't "progressing" is it? That's just how my mind thinks it is.
Focussing, I think I understand but when I read what I've written I don't know if I've actually answered the question...

All the best,

Rod

[DrWilko]

Hi Rod,

Hope things are going well out there.

Brilliant looking - I can see that you are trying to describe experience as distinct from thoughts about experience. Great!

Are you hearing sounds? What exactly is hearing them? Look for where the hearing of sound begins. Can it be found? Is there sound as well as hearing?

I see what you're pointing at ...he hearing is what happens ...there isn't a separate 'sound' followed by 'hearing' .... The experience is hearing ... that's all…

Yes! Exactly.

Now try the same thing with sight/seeing.

Part one:
What is the actual experience of seeing? Are there separate objects or simply colour?

Try closing the eyes: what is there of seeing?

When opening them again, what is the content of seeing? Things or just colour?

Part 2:
Now: is there a distinction in experience between the seeing and a seer or that which sees (eyes), or is only seeing known in experience? Can you find the boundary between seeing and seer?

I will get to your other question about exercises to do with events/continuity - but I don't want to overload you with too many questions in one post! Just try the seeing/sight exercise first and let me know how you get on.

All good wishes,
Dave

[Ngakawau]

Hi Dave....

Thank you ... when I slow down and focus things are more clear...

Part one:
What is the actual experience of seeing? Are there separate objects or simply colour?

Try closing the eyes: what is there of seeing?

When opening them again, what is the content of seeing? Things or just colour?

The actual "seeing" is just colour. I had the spontaneous experience earlier of looking at an object and seeing it as blocks of colour and, in the moment, not mentally labelling it. Within seconds my mind "recognised" it, labeled it and I ceased to see it as it was. I saw an object with a name and "back-story".
When the eyes are closed, seeing is of darkness and a few shadowy blobs of colour which the mind makes no attempt to interpret. In the instant of opening the eyes, the immediate experience is purely of colour ... no meaning, no-one seeing, just colours

Part 2:
Now: is there a distinction in experience between the seeing and a seer or that which sees (eyes), or is only seeing known in experience? Can you find the boundary between seeing and seer?

From the previous experience I described and doing the seeing/closed eyes/seeing exercise ... the essential content of seeing is simply colour ... the mind calls up remembered "picture-thoughts" to find a match to fit ... .Then the experience is labeled. Even "colour" is a label.

The actual experience is seeing/eyes (same thing, no distinction). There isn't a seer.

All the best to you,

Rod

[DrWilko]

Hi Rod,

Brilliant looking.

Just to clarify:

The actual experience is seeing/eyes (same thing, no distinction). There isn't a seer.

Is it known that the eyes see, or is this assumed and there is just seeing? To be clear: is there a boundary between seeing and seen that is:
1. The surface of the eye;
2. The particular objects seen;
3. Somewhere else or
4. None to be found?

Okay, now let's apply the same process to sensation.

When sitting or lying down, close your eyes and allow sensations to be noticed. There will be thoughts about sensations that arise, let them drift by and notice just the sensations themselves as much as possible.

After settling into this for a while, is there anything about the sensations that tell you, for example:

The body is right next to something (eg. Chair or bed or floor). Thought will say so maybe, but can it be discerned from the sensation itself that this is so?

Is there anything about bodily sensation itself that suggests a boundary between body and objects, or body and atmosphere, or is only sensation itself known?

Is it possible to discern, from sensation itself, any particular shape to the body; its height or weight; the number of fingers or toes?

When the eyes are opened, you can apply what has been seen from the eye exercise.

What is the actual experience of "your" body?

Let me know how you get on...

Best wishes as always,
Dave

[DrWilko]

Hi Rod,

Just checking in to see how it's going.
Let me know when you can.

All good wishes,
Dave