Cutting through the paradox

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ossie123
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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby ossie123 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:41 am

Hi,

I’m feeling very dejected today. Like I’ve run a marathon and just before the finish I tripped so I’ve had to go back to the start to do it again. I read 5 chapters of the book and can’t SEE anything. It should be so simple to just put one foot in front of the other. I’ll answer the questions anyway just so I know where I am.

Mostly accurate & let's look at where there are hits & misses.
I cannot “see” myself without some kind of mirror to reflect myself to myself.
With a mirror, what self would be reflected?
Ignoring what I know the answer should be, I can only see that a mirror would reflect me. Where can I find me? I don’t know.
there is the bird and there is hearing.
There is a bird?

Yes, there is hearing, but what tells you there is "bird?" What is the Actual Experience of bird?
The bird is there, as it is. The hearing is in me but it is hearing the bird. Why do I want to cry?
three parts to that experience being I am, seeing, and computer screen.
You've got pieces of this.

Where is this "I am?" Point to it.

What is "computer screen?" What is the Actual Experience of "computer screen?"
I can’t point to “I am”. So! Computer screen is a thought that describes what is seen.
But what is this
super ego or optic nerve, or anything else.
Point to this "super ego,' please?


Optic nerve? If you cut open the eye what would be the Actual Experience of an optic nerve?
It is just a thought used to describe a concept. It cannot be pointed to. Actual experience is more immediate. Crap. I’m just saying that because I know I should. There is no experience of an optic nerve. It is just a part of the body that is used to create the experieince.

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ossie123
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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby ossie123 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:50 am

P.S.

Thank You.

(That deserves a post on its own.)

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ossie123
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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby ossie123 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:56 am

P.P.S.

(Third of three posts today).

Physically today has also been the pits. From head to toe and everything in between, centred around the lower abdomen but reaching every extreme. Worse than getting my jaw broken in two places with stitches so you get an idea.

I tried to feel the pain and discomfort just happening but that didn't work.

I tried to do a yoga routine I've been doing for over 20 years, before it starts there is just a warm up to raise and lower energy from the earth with the breath. I couln't get it above my abdomen and just had no strength to raise higher. I felt dizzy and nearly fell over.

Thanks.

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Anastacia42
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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby Anastacia42 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:17 am

Ossie,

You're welcome.

It sounds like hormones & you'll feel better in a day or two.

The stories we tell ourselves are tenacious. We think that is reality and we don't know what will be around the next corner if we see through those. It's scary, even when we know that it isn't.
I tried to feel the pain and discomfort just happening but that didn't work.
If you want to use that "pain" for practice, notice that all that is really there is sensation. Pain is a label we made up.

Crying can be good. For me that's when I have let go and stopped being so defensive.

Is very good that you're being real with where you are and not just giving answers that you think are right. You will get much farther that way.

I'm answering on my cell phone at 3 a.m. . Right now your instructions are to just relax. I will respond to your exercise pieces later.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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Anastacia42
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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby Anastacia42 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:45 pm

Hi Ossie,

Before I reply to what you posted before, how are you doing?

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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ossie123
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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby ossie123 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:50 pm

Hi,

Still frustrated at myself for being myself. :)

I didn't take your advice and just relax but kept on reading the book and re-doing some of the exercises without luck.

Now we are packing and tomorrow going to visit my parents for a week. I say that because I know it will be a challenging time for me with lots of my most painful buttons being pushed. I was never good enough and now they have a grand daughter to instill the same values. It is almost certainly the last time I'll see dad because a year ago the doctors told us to stop medication and he'd be dead in a week. From then, he made a full recovery. There will be lots of different emotions.

Anyway, the previous marathon has finished without a finish. I'm at the starting gates impatiently waiting for the gun to go off for the next race even though there is no indication of distance.

Pull the trigger if you dare (I really don't mind if you point the gun at myself).

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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby Anastacia42 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:40 am

Okay, but relaxing is HOW you SEE!

What were you doing when this happened?
I have had the experience for a few days where my entire being was in that space where I was “I-less” and timeless. I’ll use “me” as the story of small self and “I” as the one witnessing me, just for clarity. Life just seemed to happen and I witnessed it happening to me. It was not me in control of it as usual, setting plans and doing things but me was like a character in a stage play and I was watching the play. Occasionally me would stop to think about something, or react to a situation, and I would smile at me as if me was a child learning to walk and stumbling. When things needed to happen, they happened and me was not in control as me usually thinks. Something else was directing the play and me just had a role in the play. During these few days there was no thought of me not being in control because it just was what it was, no analysis required.
Were you "trying hard?" Or relaxed?
Ignoring what I know the answer should be, I can only see that a mirror would reflect me. Where can I find me? I don’t know.
You see a "me'in the mirror? Or some colored image that you were taught to label, "me?" Check. What is seen?


there is the bird and there is hearing.
There is a bird?
Yes, there is hearing, but what tells you there is "bird?" What is the Actual Experience of bird?

The bird is there, as it is. The hearing is in me but it is hearing the bird. Why do I want to cry?

Check again. Do you see "bird?" Or just colors you were taught to label "bird?"

LOOK at a bird and SEE.

If it were me crying at the point that you wrote this, it would be from frustration. Like I said before, crying can be very good. It can mean we've let go of our defenses.

Again, "optic nerve" - AE or a made-up label?

Go through the questions above. Then we have a different exercise. It is based on the same understanding through working on above. I realize you're going to be out of town and there will be a lot of family things to deal with, but do what you can when you can even if it's after you get back.

Okay...

Let's do another exercise to help distinguish between what I call "story" or "content" and the simple fact of Direct or Actual Experience (DE or AE).

DE is color, sound, sensation, smell, taste and the fact of thought arising (but not the content of that thought or the story that thought tells.)

If you have a "real" apple then you can use that for this exercise.

Image

Have a look at an apple. When "looking at an apple," there's color; a thought saying "apple;" and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, the story, what they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something - because that is only more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of a thought arising.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT "apple?"

Can "apple" be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in Actual Experience (AE.)

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labeled "apple" is known.
Color labeled "apple" is known.
Sensation labeled "apple" is known (when apple is touched).
Smell labelled "apple’ is known.
Thought about/of an "apple" is known.

However, is an apple actually known?

Let me know what you find.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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ossie123
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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby ossie123 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:58 am

Hi Stacy,

I’ll do this in two parts to match what you wrote, first one now and second maybe tomorrow if I get a chance.

What were you doing when this happened?
I have had the experience for a few days where my entire being was in that space where I was “I-less” and timeless. I’ll use “me” as the story of small self and “I” as the one witnessing me, just for clarity. Life just seemed to happen and I witnessed it happening to me. It was not me in control of it as usual, setting plans and doing things but me was like a character in a stage play and I was watching the play. Occasionally me would stop to think about something, or react to a situation, and I would smile at me as if me was a child learning to walk and stumbling. When things needed to happen, they happened and me was not in control as me usually thinks. Something else was directing the play and me just had a role in the play. During these few days there was no thought of me not being in control because it just was what it was, no analysis required.
I really don’t remember how it started. I know there was a long period of striving and doing work but there was no direct “cause” of the events. There was no process I could follow to recreate the events.
Were you "trying hard?" Or relaxed?
Before I was trying hard, but during I was relaxed. It was certainly unexpected and not the direct result of my trying. I keep trying to explain it and intellectualise by giving examples (like music but I deleted it) but I know that is part of myself thinking and taking credit.

Short answer – relaxed.
Ignoring what I know the answer should be, I can only see that a mirror would reflect me. Where can I find me? I don’t know.
You see a "me'in the mirror? Or some colored image that you were taught to label, "me?" Check. What is seen?
OK, just what is seen. Hair, eyes, nose, etc. Also senses such as touch and sound of breathing. So something is being sensed. What is it? It is just a thing with very many labels, one of which is me. The label is separate to the thing and only a thought attaches one to the other.

there is the bird and there is hearing.
There is a bird?
Yes, there is hearing, but what tells you there is "bird?" What is the Actual Experience of bird?

The bird is there, as it is. The hearing is in me but it is hearing the bird. Why do I want to cry?

Check again. Do you see "bird?" Or just colors you were taught to label "bird?"

LOOK at a bird and SEE.

This is where I was getting stuck and my head spun. I really felt like you were trying to make me deny the bird. I feel stuck on this point.

In actual experience there are only sensations, sight and sound. Nothing more than that. The sights and sounds are generated by something and a word used to describe that is “bird”. The word bird has no existence and “bird” itself has no existence, but the thing that generated the sound does. I’m not sure if I’ve explained that well but all of that is what I “see” whether by physical sensation or by thought and what I meant when I said it is as it is. It is not a “bird” but it is. If I’m getting stuck on something please let me know because this seems to be where I feel stuck.

Again, "optic nerve" - AE or a made-up label?

label.
Go through the questions above. Then we have a different exercise. ……..

The other exercise will be done probably in a day or two.

Thanks

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Anastacia42
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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby Anastacia42 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:04 pm

Good morning, Ossie,

This is so much easier than you are making it.
This is where I was getting stuck and my head spun. I really felt like you were trying to make me deny the bird. I feel stuck on this point.
You had no trouble seeing that the "optic nerve" was just a label and what you see is color.

In the same way, when you look at the "bird," and hear the "bird," the idea of a "bird" is a label that we made up!

Let go of the label! Just see the color and hear the sound. Notice that "bird" is a label that we made up.

Yes, there's something there - color and sound.

Color and sounds do not go away when we LOOK but this label, "bird" never existed. Not on its own.

There is no spoon. :-) but there is color.

Read through the next exercise. I'm pretty sure it will set your mind at ease a bit.
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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ossie123
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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby ossie123 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:10 pm

Okay...

Let's do another exercise to help distinguish between what I call "story" or "content" and the simple fact of Direct or Actual Experience (DE or AE).

DE is color, sound, sensation, smell, taste and the fact of thought arising (but not the content of that thought or the story that thought tells.)

If you have a "real" apple then you can use that for this exercise.



Have a look at an apple. When "looking at an apple," there's color; a thought saying "apple;" and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, the story, what they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something - because that is only more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of a thought arising.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT "apple?"

Just from Actual Experience….

There is no Apple. There is only sight of colour, sound of crunching, taste of sweet, thought of tasty.

Can "apple" be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in Actual Experience (AE.)

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labeled "apple" is known.
Color labeled "apple" is known.
Sensation labeled "apple" is known (when apple is touched).
Smell labelled "apple’ is known.
Thought about/of an "apple" is known.

However, is an apple actually known?

Let me know what you find.

Apple is just a concept and cannot be found by direct experience.

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Anastacia42
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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:42 pm

Hi,

So do you feel like you're denying the Apple?

Can you see that the bird is the same? No bird?


Are you answering from what is known? From what you SEE? It is possible to actually see this. It is good to learn about it, but seeing is what we're after.

Referring back to what you wrote before

I have had the experience for a few days where my entire being was in that space where I was “I-less” and timeless. I’ll use “me” as the story of small self and “I” as the one witnessing me, just for clarity. Life just seemed to happen and I witnessed it happening to me. It was not me in control of it as usual, setting plans and doing things but me was like a character in a stage play and I was watching the play. Occasionally me would stop to think about something, or react to a situation, and I would smile at me as if me was a child learning to walk and stumbling. When things needed to happen, they happened and me was not in control as me usually thinks. Something else was directing the play and me just had a role in the play. During these few days there was no thought of me not being in control because it just was what it was, no analysis required.
Let's look at the ideas of controller and decider. and thought.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?


Remember to relax and have fun with it.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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ossie123
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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby ossie123 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 12:54 am

Hi,
So do you feel like you're denying the Apple?
No.
Can you see that the bird is the same? No bird?
Yes.
Let's look at the ideas of controller and decider. and thought.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.
I tried to ignore the content, but also relaxed and sometimes went with them rather than fight against it.
Where are they coming from and going to?
Nowhere to nowhere. Just passing by.
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Nope.
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Nope.
Can you predict your next thought?
No.
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Ha, no way.
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
No. Can’t choose them at all.
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
No.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
No.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?
Pretty much random. They do follow inputs sometimes like when I heard a sound outside and the thoughts followed it to label it “car” and then wonder where they are going. That’s what they are meant to do (there’s another thought about thoughts) but most of the time they are random and just float around.

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ossie123
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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby ossie123 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:00 am

Hi,

it's been 3 or 4 days now. Any response?

Thanks

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Anastacia42
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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby Anastacia42 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:58 am

Hi, sorry, I did respond to this. I don't know what happened to it. Let me do it again.

Give me a few minutes.
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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Anastacia42
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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby Anastacia42 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:05 am

Hi, again,

Okay, you're on track here.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Pretty much random. They do follow inputs sometimes like when I heard a sound outside and the thoughts followed it to label it “car” and then wonder where they are going. That’s what they are meant to do (there’s another thought about thoughts) but most of the time they are random and just float around.
Yes, just another "thought about thoughts. " the content is meaningless.

Are they random most of the time? Or all of the time? Do you think about a label "car" every time you hear that thing called car? Or is it random? Sometimes that follows and sometimes it doesn't?

What is noticed as you become more aware of the randomness?


Thanks for letting me know the reply didn't post.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti


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