I feel ready want truth without comprimise

[majiinx]

HOWEVER IS AN APPLE ACTUALLY KNOWN? Or what is known is taste, colour, sensation, smell, sound, thought?

Correction, taste, color, sensation, smell, south and thought ARE the knowing of the apple.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Eric,

How can something that is NOT known be eaten and be eaten by what exactly? How can colour, sound, thought, smell, sound and sensation be eaten?

Eating just happens, there is nothing to know. All we know of is the senses and the apple interacting together. There is no separate experience of sound, color, thought, smell and sensation. It all simply goes together.

Eating SEEMS to happen, however does colour eat? Does sound eat? Does smell eat? Does taste eat? Does sensation eat? Does thought eat? If not, then what is it exactly that is eating?

What is the AE of the ‘body’? Look carefully at this pointer.

At this stage of the exploration, please leave the idea of what is separate and what isn’t separate out of the equation. I just want you to become aware of actual experience….can you do that?



What is a rose? Perhaps a nice red and green flower with a pleasant smell and some sharp thorns?
But LOOK again - all that is actually present are the colours red and green, a smell and maybe an 'ouch' sensation. The rose itself is only a story.
Notice that all things that seem to exist are just like the rose. Just fictional stories (ie thoughts, idea, concepts) ABOUT actual experience.

Beyond the story that suggests actual experience is a rose, can a rose be found in actual experience? Or what is actually appearing is simply colour, smell, and sensation?

Is a thought needed for it to be known when a sound appears or when a thought appears or when smell or sensation appears? Are they not simply known?

Things are just known, our thought of it is not a knowing, just a short version that fails miserably to describe it.

What is it exactly that is thinking? There would have to be a separate ‘you’ for there to be a thinker of thought. I would like to move onto looking at thoughts but I can’t as it seems that actual experience is not being seen clearly.

Kay

[majiinx]

Eating SEEMS to happen, however does colour eat? Does sound eat? Does smell eat? Does taste eat? Does sensation eat? Does thought eat? If not, then what is it exactly that is eating?

It is just a label we give to an experience that comprises of various sensations. When we "think" of eating we think of a person eating a piece of food, but that is not the whole experience.

What is the AE of the ‘body’? Look carefully at this pointer.

I do not know, to be honest, my sense of body awareness seems to come and go like my thoughts. Even chronic pain comes and goes, it is not permanent like we think. For instance, I suffer from chronic neck pain and tension it will usually start in the morning and continue throughout the day. And yet when I am focused on my work, meditating, immerse in some activity, the pain is gone until the thought of it comes.

The body is much the same way, even when engaging the body I seem to forget it is even there. I do hot yoga and even though I am in this hot room, I often forget that I am hot. I sometimes do yoga poses and get swept away in thought and yet the yoga poses are still happening despite the fact that I am immersed in thought. It is as if the body itself is nothing but a series of thoughts and sensations that arise and fall spontaneously.

Beyond the story that suggests actual experience is a rose, can a rose be found in actual experience? Or what is actually appearing is simply colour, smell, and sensation?

I cannot seem to find anything in actual experience other than color, sensation, smell, taste, and thought.


I have no problem looking and being in actual experience, my issue is my inability to put these experiences into words. When I am doing the exercises I have no problem looking and being fully committed to them and I have reached a point where thoughts do not affect me or add a filter to experience like they used to. But after the exercise happens, a flood of thoughts come in to try and explain the results so that is where confusion and questioning come from.

What is it exactly that is thinking? There would have to be a separate ‘you’ for there to be a thinker of thought. I would like to move onto looking at thoughts but I can’t as it seems that actual experience is not being seen clearly.

There is nothing thinking, thoughts are just happening, this I have known for some time through meditation. There was never a thinker of thoughts, if there were then surely the thinker would have control over those thoughts. And yet no matter how much meditation a person has done, there is simply no controlling thoughts. Thoughts come and go like the wind, sometimes they are in response to stimuli, sometimes that are completely random and come out of nowhere with no relationship to anything going on in the present.

When I said, "our thought of it" I did not literally mean "our", this is an example of having a hard time putting things into words. I only use "my", "I", "you", "our" etc... out of habit. I can understand that there is no-self because I have yet to find one. The realization and recognition of it has not happened obviously.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Eric,

Eating SEEMS to happen, however does colour eat? Does sound eat? Does smell eat? Does taste eat? Does sensation eat? Does thought eat? If not, then what is it exactly that is eating?

It is just a label we give to an experience that comprises of various sensations. When we "think" of eating we think of a person eating a piece of food, but that is not the whole experience.

Great! Eating is an idea. Thoughts appear about a ‘someone eating’, however when you actually look, all that is appearing is sensation, sound, taste, colour, smell and thoughts about these being a person eating.

What is the AE of the ‘body’? Look carefully at this pointer.

I do not know, to be honest, my sense of body awareness seems to come and go like my thoughts. Even chronic pain comes and goes, it is not permanent like we think. For instance, I suffer from chronic neck pain and tension it will usually start in the morning and continue throughout the day. And yet when I am focused on my work, meditating, immerse in some activity, the pain is gone until the thought of it comes.

The body is much the same way, even when engaging the body I seem to forget it is even there. I do hot yoga and even though I am in this hot room, I often forget that I am hot. I sometimes do yoga poses and get swept away in thought and yet the yoga poses are still happening despite the fact that I am immersed in thought. It is as if the body itself is nothing but a series of thoughts and sensations that arise and fall spontaneously.

Great, yes…” the body itself is nothing but a series of thoughts and sensations that arise and fall spontaneously”. Thought ‘points’ to those sensations and labels it a body and then goes on further about the body doing yoga poses, feeling pain etc.

So, if you look at the body like we looked at the apple, what is the AE of the body?

The label ‘body’ is known
The sensation labelled as ‘body’ is known
Colour labelled as ‘body’ is known
Thoughts about the ‘body’ are known
However, is a ‘body’ actually known?

Beyond the story that suggests actual experience is a rose, can a rose be found in actual experience? Or what is actually appearing is simply colour, smell, and sensation?

I cannot seem to find anything in actual experience other than color, sensation, smell, taste, and thought.

You cannot SEEM to find anything or you cannot find anything...there is a difference?

I have no problem looking and being in actual experience, my issue is my inability to put these experiences into words. When I am doing the exercises I have no problem looking and being fully committed to them and I have reached a point where thoughts do not affect me or add a filter to experience like they used to. But after the exercise happens, a flood of thoughts come in to try and explain the results so that is where confusion and questioning come from.

So you are aware of those “flooding thoughts” and you are aware of the thoughts about “confusion”. Are they any different to any other thought?

When I said, "our thought of it" I did not literally mean "our", this is an example of having a hard time putting things into words. I only use "my", "I", "you", "our" etc... out of habit. I can understand that there is no-self because I have yet to find one. The realization and recognition of it has not happened obviously.

I don’t have a problem with you using ‘our, I, me’ etc, however, there are times when I will question it when it seems to me that you aren’t looking but just going with thought - that is my role as your guide :)

Even though you have seen some of how thought works, we will continue to look at thought for the time being.

The following link is a 7 minute clip of a soccer game. If you prefer another sport…please feel free to find one to do this exercise with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy5pL-myDzw

1. Watch one minute with the sound turned OFF, watching ‘people’ messing about with a round thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in, the whole experience.

2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON.

Notice the differences. Notice how the commentator (aka thought) offers lots of know-how, even advice, seems to feel as though they can influence somehow what is going on, as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome, the commentary may seem to heighten any supporter feelings which are there, and call for an identification with one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself.

3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible commentary, the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Again notice all the differences in what is appearing as experience.

4. Now turn the volume ON again and ignore what you think you know thought is talking about, and just notice it as sound.

Let me know what you notice when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening etc?

Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?

And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?

Kay

[majiinx]

However, is a ‘body’ actually known?

All I know of the body is through AE. Hands are not known unless they are seen or felt. Without seeing the hands or feeling the hands it is as if they are not there. WAIT!! When I drive to work every day, my hands are on the steering wheel, in front of my own eyes. They are clearly seen but there is no thought needed for them to exist or work. They turn and guide they wheel all on there own and the feeling of the hands touching the steering wheel comes and goes with thought.

You cannot SEEM to find anything or you cannot find anything...there is a difference?

I cannot, I said seen because doubt came in and then the thought of being wrong came with it. No rose or any object are found, only color, sensations, thought, sound, taste, nothing else.

So you are aware of those “flooding thoughts” and you are aware of the thoughts about “confusion”. Are they any different to any other thought?

They are not different, they are just an echo of one another. The feeling of confusion and the thought "I am confused" arise together and fall together. They are not separate from one another. And it's funny because I observed myself feeling anxious and with it though of being anxious. I kept looking to see why I was feeling anxious but could not find any reason, and eventually, the thought of being anxious and the feeling of being anxious faded away together.

Let me know what you notice when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening etc?

So I started my minute after the screen displayed "Australia vs Brazil" and what I noticed when the sound was off there was nothing in watching without sound to suggest Australia is facing Brazil in a soccer match. When watching without sound and simply just watching without thought, all that is seen is color dancing around. Any attempt to describe it is simply me cutting the experience into pieces and try to put as many pieces together to explain what was seen, it is simply impossible.

With sound, the experience was broken down into very very very small pieces of the whole experience and left out 99% of what was going on in the whole experience. All he was focused on was "Australia vs Brazil" and the "players" kicking the "ball" into "the net", everything else that was happened was largely left out.

Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?

Not at all, quite the opposite, it is often called "Color commentary" and it seems like they are trying to throw color onto a perfectly good picture. It is unnecessary and caters only to "the mind".

And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?

Not at all, life doesn't give a damn about thought. Life happens perfectly on its own and is unstained and untouched by any thought. Thought only sours the experience of life as is. It adds unnecessary flavor to a perfectly good dish.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Eric,

However, is a ‘body’ actually known?

All I know of the body is through AE. Hands are not known unless they are seen or felt. Without seeing the hands or feeling the hands it is as if they are not there. WAIT!! When I drive to work every day, my hands are on the steering wheel, in front of my own eyes. They are clearly seen but there is no thought needed for them to exist or work. They turn and guide they wheel all on there own and the feeling of the hands touching the steering wheel comes and goes with thought.

Terrific! This is a good time to look at the idea of control/decision/choices.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

You cannot SEEM to find anything or you cannot find anything...there is a difference?

I cannot, I said seen because doubt came in and then the thought of being wrong came with it. No rose or any object are found, only color, sensations, thought, sound, taste, nothing else.

Doubt and confusion are part and parcel of this exploration. So break them down into AE.

The label ‘doubt’ is AE of thought and not AE of doubt
The sensation labelled ‘doubt’ is AE of sensation and not AE of doubt
The image labelled ‘me/body/I” is AE of colour and not AE of a person who is doubting
The thoughts about doubt and what that means is AE of thought and not AE of doubt

So what is actually known is label + sensation + colour + thought, however is doubt actually known?

So you are aware of those “flooding thoughts” and you are aware of the thoughts about “confusion”. Are they any different to any other thought?

They are not different, they are just an echo of one another. The feeling of confusion and the thought "I am confused" arise together and fall together. They are not separate from one another. And it's funny because I observed myself feeling anxious and with it though of being anxious. I kept looking to see why I was feeling anxious but could not find any reason, and eventually, the thought of being anxious and the feeling of being anxious faded away together.

Great, it is always good to LOOK at what is actually appearing.

Does the label ‘anxious’ know anything about anxiety?
Does sensation labelled as ‘anxiety’ suggest in any way that it is anxious or that it knows anything about anxiety?
Does image/colour labelled as ‘body’ know anything about anxiety?
Do thoughts about anxiety know anything about anxiety?

So what is actually appearing?

Let me know what you notice when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening etc?

So I started my minute after the screen displayed "Australia vs Brazil" and what I noticed when the sound was off there was nothing in watching without sound to suggest Australia is facing Brazil in a soccer match. When watching without sound and simply just watching without thought, all that is seen is color dancing around. Any attempt to describe it is simply me cutting the experience into pieces and try to put as many pieces together to explain what was seen, it is simply impossible.

Yes, see how thought seems to be the predominant experience, however, if you just allow (watch/observe) thought without actually following thought, you see that thought is just a constant stream of commentary that has a story about everything, and how it overlays actual experience continuously with stories.

So can you see how thought does the same with the colour labelled ‘Eric’ and ‘his life’?

With sound, the experience was broken down into very very very small pieces of the whole experience and left out 99% of what was going on in the whole experience. All he was focused on was "Australia vs Brazil" and the "players" kicking the "ball" into "the net", everything else that was happened was largely left out.

Did you notice how the muted video left you rather neutral towards the apparent happenings on screen, while the commentary version of the game kind of sucked you into the story that the commentator was telling. And did you also notice that muted watching was more about the current action whilst the commentator was mostly referring to what just happened. So this is how it goes with the story about a character called ‘Eric’

And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?
Not at all, life doesn't give a damn about thought. Life happens perfectly on its own and is unstained and untouched by any thought. Thought only sours the experience of life as is. It adds unnecessary flavor to a perfectly good dish.

Thought is often made out to be the enemy, in the search for truth, but it’s not. If you don't notice the difference between what thought says about reality, and how you find reality to actually be, you won't notice your innate peace and freedom.
In order to notice that difference, the very first thing you have to notice is whether, or not, you are the author of thoughts. Or whether ANYTHING is authoring thoughts. The second thing you need to notice is whether thought is aware of what it says, or not. Once you are sure of the answers to those questions, the differences between what thought says about reality, and how you find reality to ACTUALLY be, will reveal themselves.

Kay

[majiinx]

How is the movement controlled?

It just seems to happen, as soon as I get into actual experience there is no sense of "I am turning my arm" it just happens and I cannot find any control mechanism.

Does a thought control it?

No, despite me performing the exercise as per your instruction, the thought of controlling the arm never arises in actual experience.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No controller can be found anywhere.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Initially the thought "I am going to turn my arm arose" but the arm never lifted up or turned. After settling into the actual experience it seemed to just happen. This seems to pretty much always be the case, it is very noticeable when waking up first thing in the morning, the body seemingly follows a pattern all on its own. Get up, use the restroom, drink some water, meditate, take a shower, put on clothes. All these things happen without any sense of doing or controlling.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

NO!! In fact as soon as I read this the hand went up and turned on its own as I observed!!! No thought whatsoever! No sense of an "I" turning "my" hand over.

So what is actually known is label + sensation + colour + thought, however is doubt actually known?

No, it is not.

Does the label ‘anxious’ know anything about anxiety?

No, it does not

Does sensation labelled as ‘anxiety’ suggest in any way that it is anxious or that it knows anything about anxiety?

No, it does not.

Does image/colour labelled as ‘body’ know anything about anxiety?

No, it does not.

Do thoughts about anxiety know anything about anxiety?

No, they do not.

So what is actually appearing?

The AE of sensation with the label "anxiety"

[forgetmenot]

Hi Eric,

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Initially the thought "I am going to turn my arm arose" but the arm never lifted up or turned.

Exactly! If thought controlled the action, then every time the thought appeared (and thoughts appear randomly) the palm would just turn whether convenient or not!

After settling into the actual experience it seemed to just happen. This seems to pretty much always be the case, it is very noticeable when waking up first thing in the morning, the body seemingly follows a pattern all on its own. Get up, use the restroom, drink some water, meditate, take a shower, put on clothes. All these things happen without any sense of doing or controlling.

Great observation.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

NO!! In fact as soon as I read this the hand went up and turned on its own as I observed!!! No thought whatsoever! No sense of an "I" turning "my" hand over.

That is an adamant NO! Great! (smiling)

So what is actually appearing?

The AE of sensation with the label "anxiety"

Lovely, yes! Thought ‘points’ to the sensation and infers that it is ‘anxiety’. A good way to check what IS, as opposed to what thought says is, is the following exercise. You can use it with any thought anywhere.

Let’s say the thought “I am confused” arises. Does the thought “I am confused” contain any actual confusion? Replace that thought with “blahblahblah” and see what remains. Let me know how you go.

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

You need to get any two different drinks you like for this exercise, ie coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc. One will be drink A the other will be drink B

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Kay

[majiinx]

Hello Kay,

I apologize for being away for so long, I have been very ill this past week and my personal life got really hectic so I have not been in the right space for these kind of inquiries. I haven't been near a computer so I have not been able to jump on here so I'm sorry about that. Today has been a long day so I just need another day and then I should be good to resume these exercises on a regular basis.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Eric,

I look forward to hearing from you.

Kay

[majiinx]

Let’s say the thought “I am confused” arises. Does the thought “I am confused” contain any actual confusion? Replace that thought with “blahblahblah” and see what remains. Let me know how you go.

No, the thought "I am confused" contains nothing, it is just a label given to the AE of the feeling we label "confusion"

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

When looking at them, the commentary about their qualities seemed to happen on their own, for this exercise I used water and coffee. The qualities of coffee that came were its unique taste, it is warm and it helps me stay awake and focus. For water, it is refreshing, hydrating and cleansing.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

The number counting seemed to happen when getting ready to drink, but it appears that the decision to drink the coffee came on its own. It is interesting because I had been longing for the coffee had been there because I was tired. Then when I count concluded a took a sip of coffee. No, I did not experience some mental function, just the AE we label "Drinking coffee"

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

No, although the thought "I want coffee" arose, there did not arise a chooser to choose the cup of coffee. It simply happened, with no effort and nobody making it happen. It seems though that no matter how many times during the day the sense of controlling actions arise, the controller seems to disappear as soon as the action is taken.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Eric,

Let’s say the thought “I am confused” arises. Does the thought “I am confused” contain any actual confusion? Replace that thought with “blahblahblah” and see what remains. Let me know how you go.

No, the thought "I am confused" contains nothing, it is just a label given to the AE of the feeling we label "confusion"

So when you replaced the thought “I am confused” with “blahblahblah”, what remained? What was actually appearing ie the actual experience?

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

When looking at them, the commentary about their qualities seemed to happen on their own, for this exercise I used water and coffee. The qualities of coffee that came were its unique taste, it is warm and it helps me stay awake and focus. For water, it is refreshing, hydrating and cleansing.

Nice! Can a thinker of thought be found? Since there is no thinker of thought, then these thoughts just simply appear, with thoughts about preferences.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

The number counting seemed to happen when getting ready to drink, but it appears that the decision to drink the coffee came on its own. It is interesting because I had been longing for the coffee had been there because I was tired. Then when I count concluded a took a sip of coffee. No, I did not experience some mental function, just the AE we label "Drinking coffee"

Here is an interesting clip about decision making. Scientists show how decisions are made seconds before we become aware of them..

https://vimeo.com/90101368

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

No, although the thought "I want coffee" arose, there did not arise a chooser to choose the cup of coffee. It simply happened, with no effort and nobody making it happen. It seems though that no matter how many times during the day the sense of controlling actions arise, the controller seems to disappear as soon as the action is taken.

Lovely observations, Eric.

So to date you have seen that there is no controller or chooser or decision maker....how do you feel seeing this?

Okay, so we have looked at the idea of a controller, decider and chooser. Now let’s look at the idea of a doer/doership.

We’ll do a little exercise on this topic. It has to do with the sense of seeing.

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:
Look on your right.
Then look on your left.
Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black space’).

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

Can you turn off seeing?

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Kay

[majiinx]

So when you replaced the thought “I am confused” with “blahblahblah”, what remained? What was actually appearing ie the actual experience?

Just the thought of blah blah blah blah which seemed to override the feeling labeled "confusion".

So to date you have seen that there is no controller or chooser or decision maker....how do you feel seeing this?

Quite indifferent honestly. Not shocking at all, I remember pondering this over a year ago when driving. When I drove I always got lost in thought but noticed that somehow I can safely travel on a dangerous highway, lose all sense of "I am driving" yet somehow get to my destination perfectly safely. If there were some controller "I" cannot find one.

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

No, I cannot choose what I see. No, whatever is seen, is seen. The material world, or total blackness, seeing is happening on its own. It cannot be shut off.

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

No, what is on the left is what is seen on the left.

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

No, the black space is seen when the eyes remain closed.

Can you turn off seeing?

No, seeing cannot be turned off. I used to think closing my eyes was turning off seeing. But I realize that when the eyes are closed, seeing is still going on! Sometimes its pure blackness, sometimes its dancing lights, sometimes its a lights reflection off the eyelid. But my point is, seeing cannot be turned off, but what is seen can change.

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

"I" don't know, I don't even know what "self" means. It seems like such an empty word because as much as I looked for a self I find nothing. Any sense of it seemingly comes on its own, goes away just as fast. It seems as though choices just happen.

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

I don't think I can even formulate an answer to that. I want to say that I can choose to simply be aware. But then I cannot find the one who would control awareness. Being aware seems to come and go as well. It seems to get lost as quickly as the self and all the random thoughts that come and go.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Eric,

So to date you have seen that there is no controller or chooser or decision maker....how do you feel seeing this?

Quite indifferent honestly. Not shocking at all, I remember pondering this over a year ago when driving. When I drove I always got lost in thought but noticed that somehow I can safely travel on a dangerous highway, lose all sense of "I am driving" yet somehow get to my destination perfectly safely. If there were some controller "I" cannot find one.

Nice! I used to see this happen at times and certainly shows there is no ‘me’ driving the car!~

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

"I" don't know, I don't even know what "self" means. It seems like such an empty word because as much as I looked for a self I find nothing. Any sense of it seemingly comes on its own, goes away just as fast. It seems as though choices just happen.

Exactly the story of a ‘self’ appears, there is no one who is authoring the story when it appears, and just like all appearances the story subsides. But there is a knowing of the appearance of the story about a ‘self’ just as there is a knowing when thought, colour, sound, smell, sensation and taste appear. The story about fairies appear, how is that anymore real or unreal than the appearance of the story of a ‘self’?

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

I don't think I can even formulate an answer to that. I want to say that I can choose to simply be aware. But then I cannot find the one who would control awareness.

"Awareness" is just a conceptual designation for "just this, what's going on now" -- it's a thought. The knowing ABOUT something is thought, whereas the knowing AS (the appearance), is direct. You always know exactly 'what is' by being directly aware of what is.

Let’s look at the idea of awareness/observer/witness using again, the sense of seeing.

With eyes closed, take in a couple of deep breaths to settle the dust.
Then notice there is the experience of 'blackness'. There may a bright light, a red glow, sparkly bits or cloudy flecks appearing and disappearing - It really doesn't matter about the specifics. We are just noticing ‘blackness’.

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is simply AE of colour labelled ‘black’?
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than seeing ‘black’?
3) Can what is seeing ‘black’ found?
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is ‘seeing’ ‘black’?

Is there anything that is witnessing the colour labelled ‘black’? Or is there just 'black’ to be found?

Look very carefully. Where does ‘seeing’ end and colour begin? Can a dividing line between ‘seeing’ and colour be found? Or is there just seeing/colour?

Can a 'see-er' ever be found in 'what is being seen' – AE colour?

If that is all, and no INHERENT SEE-ER found . . . would anything that is suggested as the see-er be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

Okay….then open the eyes and look around.

Is there a difference between the ‘black’ when eyes are closed and ‘colour’ when eyes are open or are they both simply the appearance of colour?

Is there anything that is witnessing colour?

Is the ‘see-er’ of the seen actually separate from the seen, or is it all a singular experience?

Being aware seems to come and go as well. It seems to get lost as quickly as the self and all the random thoughts that come and go.

Is there not a knowing of everything that is happening/appearing from moment to moment? Even the knowing of the appearance of the story of colour being a world? Is there not a knowing of/as “all the random thoughts that come and go” and of every ‘thing’ else that appears from moment to moment. Can anything be unknown or hidden?

Kay

[majiinx]

1) With

eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is simply AE of colour labelled ‘black’?

Yes

2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than seeing ‘black’?

No.

3) Can what is seeing ‘black’ found?

Black is just seen, there is no seeing without the seen. they are not independent of each other.

4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is ‘seeing’ ‘black’?

No, person is found.

Is there anything that is witnessing the colour labelled ‘black’? Or is there just 'black’ to be found?

A witness cannot be found but black can be found.

Look very carefully. Where does ‘seeing’ end and colour begin? Can a dividing line between ‘seeing’ and colour be found? Or is there just seeing/colour?

No dividing line can be found anywhere!!

Can a 'see-er' ever be found in 'what is being seen' – AE colour?

No, there seems to at times be a temporary feeling of "I am seeing" but that is just a thought and it goes away.

f that is all, and no INHERENT SEE-ER found . . . would anything that is suggested as the see-er be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

It appears so because every single thing comes and goes all the time. AE seemingly unfolds on its own in some endless continuum. The SEE-ER can't be found, it is just a thought that comes and goes.

Is there a difference between the ‘black’ when eyes are closed and ‘colour’ when eyes are open or are they both simply the appearance of colour?

No, the only differences are just thoughts which only appear temporarily.

Is there anything that is witnessing colour?

No, the witness is never found anywhere, what is simply is. The experience is just one thing and all its differences are just thoughts.

Is the ‘see-er’ of the seen actually separate from the seen, or is it all a singular experience?

It is a single experience, seeing cannot occur without color and color cannot appear without being seen. That does not mean there has to be a see-er. A see-er cannot be found anywhere.

Is there not a knowing of everything that is happening/appearing from moment to moment? Even the knowing of the appearance of the story of colour being a world? Is there not a knowing of/as “all the random thoughts that come and go” and of every ‘thing’ else that appears from moment to moment. Can anything be unknown or hidden?

Unknown and hidden are dependent dependant on the existence of a knower and a seeker. No knower and seeker can be found so nothing can be unknown or hidden without something to know it or hide from it.