Remember

[JonathanR]

Hi Cosmos,

I'm so pleased this has happened for you! Thank you for answering those questions.

d. Examples of what experience?

Ha ha! I understand. Quite so. But by example we mean pick on one or two actual events or activities that you notice from your experience now and describe how these unfold naturally to reveal no 'doer' , no choice, control and so on. You were very close to doing this the other day when you said:

Based on your example 'essay', we just let the ideas express themselves. It is the 'I' thought or being absorbed with thoughts in general that make them appear that there is a doer, same with typing these words. 'Intention' is another thought that 'I' automatically attaches to and empower it - a desire. Free will, another thought that requires a 'doer' to exist. Illusory.

... but we could do with one or two more 'examples', please, just to be thorough ?

I'm pushing a computer mouse around right now but it's obvious to me that free will, choice etc have nothing to do with how its moving.

Thanks.

I see the penny has dropped or is dropping but don't go away just yet. There is a little more. And yes, it would be great anyway to stay in touch and share experiences.

love
Jon

[cosmos]

Hi Cosmos,

Ha ha! I understand. Quite so. But by example we mean pick on one or two actual events or activities that you notice from your experience now and describe how these unfold naturally to reveal no 'doer' , no choice, control and so on. You were very close to doing this the other day when you said:

Based on your example 'essay', we just let the ideas express themselves. It is the 'I' thought or being absorbed with thoughts in general that make them appear that there is a doer, same with typing these words. 'Intention' is another thought that 'I' automatically attaches to and empower it - a desire. Free will, another thought that requires a 'doer' to exist. Illusory.

... but we could do with one or two more 'examples', please, just to be thorough ?

I'm pushing a computer mouse around right now but it's obvious to me that free will, choice etc have nothing to do with how its moving.

Thanks.

I see the penny has dropped or is dropping but don't go away just yet. There is a little more. And yes, it would be great anyway to stay in touch and share experiences.

love
Jon

Okay. In the context of 'Free Will' it is now appearing as a thought in my head yet no thinker or no 'me' willed it to be thought. This invalidates what Free Will is pointing to but it does not mean that the thought 'Free Will' is not real. Does that make sense?

In a more realistic example, am currently working and supporting my team, words and instructions coming out yet there is a certain aloofness as if 'I' am not involved at all to what is happening. Like from a camera perspective, just watching this 'person' live life.

Let me know if this is thorough enough.

Love,

[JonathanR]

Hi Cosmos,

Thanks for those great clarifications. I just want you to look once more at question 5c please?

"what are you responsible for?"

You wrote: To share what is found.

That's a nice answer (and that's how I felt, which is why I find it satisfying to guide nowadays) but please look at this again.

The question 'what are you responsible for' can be tricky because clearly, if I drop a stone on someone's foot it is almost certain that someone will remind me how responsible I am for that. And I'm not advocating a situation in which a new belief in 'anything goes because I'm not responsible' is adopted. You get my drift?

Nevertheless, since everything just happens, without a 'self' 'doing' it, what about 'responsibility'?

What are you responsible for?

love

Jon

[cosmos]

Hi Cosmos,

Thanks for those great clarifications. I just want you to look once more at question 5c please?

"what are you responsible for?"

You wrote: To share what is found.

That's a nice answer (and that's how I felt, which is why I find it satisfying to guide nowadays) but please look at this again.

The question 'what are you responsible for' can be tricky because clearly, if I drop a stone on someone's foot it is almost certain that someone will remind me how responsible I am for that. And I'm not advocating a situation in which a new belief in 'anything goes because I'm not responsible' is adopted. You get my drift?

Nevertheless, since everything just happens, without a 'self' 'doing' it, what about 'responsibility'?

What are you responsible for?

love

Jon

Hi Jon,

Thank you for bringing it up again.

To be honest, nothing concrete comes to mind when I initially looked at the question.

Now, going back and focusing one more time "What are you responsible for?"

Seems like the question is yet to penetrate. No 'me' to be responsible but

Responsibility - Awareness, acting out of awareness. Also, love

These are the things that came to mind

Thank you,

[cosmos]

To add:

Letting go, just being. One with the present. Spontaneous, not acting in accordance with conditioning, beliefs, past, present thoughts. Be empty to allow life to happen.

Hard to find words right now

Love,

[JonathanR]

Hi Cosmos,

Letting go, just being. One with the present. Spontaneous, not acting in accordance with conditioning, beliefs, past, present thoughts. Be empty to allow life to happen.

Hard to find words right now

Thanks for what you have written on this so far. All good.

The question 'what are you responsible for?' can be very close to asking 'How do things happen'? or even 'do you control the universe'?

Is there such control/responsibility?

What are you responsible for?


love

Jon

[cosmos]

Hi Cosmos,

Letting go, just being. One with the present. Spontaneous, not acting in accordance with conditioning, beliefs, past, present thoughts. Be empty to allow life to happen.

Hard to find words right now

Thanks for what you have written on this so far. All good.

The question 'what are you responsible for?' can be very close to asking 'How do things happen'? or even 'do you control the universe'?

Is there such control/responsibility?

What are you responsible for?


love

Jon

There is no such thing. Therefore I am responsible for nothing.

[JonathanR]

Hi Cosmos,

Thank you for your answer. Great!

It has been such a pleasure to work with you.

Please find a Private Message from me.

We can continue talking here if you like or if you have any questions?

Love

Jon

[cosmos]

Hi Cosmos,

Thank you for your answer. Great!

It has been such a pleasure to work with you.

Please find a Private Message from me.

We can continue talking here if you like or if you have any questions?

Love

Jon

Hi Jon,

Sent you a PM but would like to keep discussing here.

I guess this has been asked before, after the shift it feels that everything is still the same.

However, the thought 'I' appears very rarely now (not sure if it does at all).

Reactions and emotions still being triggered as a response to whatever is happening. I am sure this is also normal.

Would like to ask in particular what made you interested in my original post? I am assuming that you have a background with psychedelics?

Thank you,

[JonathanR]

Hi Cosmas,

. Sent you a PM but would like to keep discussing here.

Sure. It's a good idea.

. I guess this has been asked before, after the shift it feels that everything is still the same.

It can, and sometimes this can spook people at first, as if to say 'nothing happened'!.

. However, the thought 'I' appears very rarely now (not sure if it does at all).

That's cool. But there may be times when it does appear and noisily so. But you're right to say 'the thought appears'. Even when its an insistent 'I' thought, is that thought ever you? Does it ever point to a separately existing entity?

. Reactions and emotions still being triggered as a response to whatever is happening. I am sure this is also normal.

It happens. But each time is an opportunity to notice what's going on...is there a 'self' there 'reacting'? (For example).

. Would like to ask in particular what made you interested in my original post? I am assuming that you have a background with psychedelics?

[JonathanR]

Oops. I posted before answering that last one.

Yes, I have had some experiences. I found it interesting that you clearly saw that there is no self on the LSD trip you mentioned.

When I read that I could immediately relate to what you were saying. Its very interesting how it seems to be necessary to also look, soberly, at 'normal' experience in order for the penny to finally drop that there isn't, can't be and never was a thing, 'self'. Once that's 'seen' once its understood how the illusion works, including 'doer' and 'chooser'_ there seems to come a lasting but perhaps gradual change away from identification with or as a fixed self.

Jon

[cosmos]

Hi Cosmas,

It's Cosmos but hey names are just names :)

. It can, and sometimes this can spook people at first, as if to say 'nothing happened'!.

Exactly where I'm at right now. Thought it doesn't bother me at all.

That's cool. But there may be times when it does appear and noisily so. But you're right to say 'the thought appears'. Even when its an insistent 'I' thought, is that thought ever you? Does it ever point to a separately existing entity?

Yes, yes! There are times where thoughts are flooding and there are times when everything is much quiter i.e when in nature trips. So thoughts are triggered by external environment?

Yes, I have had some experiences. I found it interesting that you clearly saw that there is no self on the LSD trip you mentioned.

When I read that I could immediately relate to what you were saying. Its very interesting how it seems to be necessary to also look, soberly, at 'normal' experience in order for the penny to finally drop that there isn't, can't be and never was a thing, 'self'. Once that's 'seen' once its understood how the illusion works, including 'doer' and 'chooser'_ there seems to come a lasting but perhaps gradual change away from identification with or as a fixed self.

Yes, that seems to be the case for me. Initially considered myself to be an 'Atheist' for a lack of better word but I also felt the connection of everything so this is what I considered 'God' before - the totality of the infinite Universe. Once I've had the psychedelic experience, it only reinforced my previous notion of truth. The dissolution of the false during that time felt like dying but really nothing dies, pure awareness remains.

[JonathanR]

Hi Cosmos,

. Yes, yes! There are times where thoughts are flooding and there are times when everything is much quiter i.e when in nature trips. So thoughts are triggered by external environment?

I go only by my direct experience in this sort of question. Personally, experientially, I find that thoughts are less busy in a quiet, natural setting (usually) and more prevalent where lots of communication or words and problem-solving is going on. But illness is interesting too. I find that thoughts becomes louder and more insistent if the body is unwell or if there's an emergency. But exceptions can happen. I've had walks where thoughts didn't shut up much and times of peace in the busiest of work situations.

. The dissolution of the false during that time felt like dying but really nothing dies, pure awareness remains.

That's very beautiful.

Jon

[cosmos]

Hello Jon,

Just letting you know that I will take some time off the forums.

Thank you,

[JonathanR]

Hi Cosmos,

Thank you for letting me know.

Love

Jon