Remember

[JonathanR]

Hi Cosmos

For the above statement, they are simply happening. Taste, feel, even smell. No receiver of such sensations.

Thank you. Good.

. Yes, it is clear to me that these thoughts are something extra. It is the 'mind' trying to label or interpret the direct experience.

Thanks again.

Ok. Do you notice on these occasions that some of the thoughts that appear tend to refer to 'I', 'me' or 'self'?

For example 'I am noticing sounds' or 'I'm doing this'?

Or even thoughts that do not relate to the current sensation at all but might be about 'me' imagined in some hypothetical scenario in a future or past?


Investigate the following:

Is it possible to create or 'think' a thought? Try it to find out.

Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing... Including the thought 'I'?

All best,

Jon

[cosmos]

Hi Cosmos

Thanks again.

Ok. Do you notice on these occasions that some of the thoughts that appear tend to refer to 'I', 'me' or 'self'?

For example 'I am noticing sounds' or 'I'm doing this'?

Or even thoughts that do not relate to the current sensation at all but might be about 'me' imagined in some hypothetical scenario in a future or past?

Investigate the following:

Is it possible to create or 'think' a thought? Try it to find out.

Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing... Including the thought 'I'?

All best,

Jon

Hi Jon,

Yes, thoughts with 'I' in the beginning also come by. As well as past experiences connected with the thought 'I' or scenarios that might happen plays out occasionally.

No and no, it is not possible to create a thought (no creator, they come by spontaneously) or prevent them from appearing. Trying to stop them is a thought in itself.

Thank you.

[JonathanR]

. For the above statement, they are simply happening. Taste, feel, even smell. No receiver of such sensations.

Thank you.

No and no, it is not possible to create a thought (no creator, they come by spontaneously) or prevent them from appearing. Trying to stop them is a thought in itself

Ok.

For this next question and in fact all of my questions you'll need to check with real experience happening here and now rather than answering from thought or memory.

Find a piece if fruit. I'll describe it as melon. First place the melon somewhere out of sight in a different room perhaps.

Now close eyes and imagine the melon. Imagine holding it, Imagine everything about how the melon is. You may like to visualise it for a few minutes.

This only needs two or three minutes. Next. Go and fetch the real melon. Hold it. Feel its,weight, texture, appearance, colours, scent. Tap it to hear how it can sound. Taste some of it.

Now compare experiences. One was a aeries of thoughts or memories about 'melon'. The other was melon for real as experienced directly.

Is it clear that the 'thought melon' was not a real melon?

Is it clear that the thought 'I' does not correspond to a real entity?

Can the thought 'I' be prevented from appearing?


Jon

[cosmos]

Ok.

For this next question and in fact all of my questions you'll need to check with real experience happening here and now rather than answering from thought or memory.

Find a piece if fruit. I'll describe it as melon. First place the melon somewhere out of sight in a different room perhaps.

Now close eyes and imagine the melon. Imagine holding it, Imagine everything about how the melon is. You may like to visualise it for a few minutes.

This only needs two or three minutes. Next. Go and fetch the real melon. Hold it. Feel its,weight, texture, appearance, colours, scent. Tap it to hear how it can sound. Taste some of it.

Now compare experiences. One was a aeries of thoughts or memories about 'melon'. The other was melon for real as experienced directly.

Is it clear that the 'thought melon' was not a real melon?

Is it clear that the thought 'I' does not correspond to a real entity?

Can the thought 'I' be prevented from appearing?

Okay, for the exercise, I just improvised whatever object that I have at the moment. In this instance, a vape. Thoughts referring to the thing may seem like very real but seeing and feeling the actual experience of the vape dispels the illusion.

Yes, it is clear that thought 'I' does not point to anything real.

Thanks,

[JonathanR]

Hi Cosmos,

Okay, for the exercise, I just improvised whatever object that I have at the moment. In this instance, a vape. Thoughts referring to the thing may seem like very real but seeing and feeling the actual experience of the vape dispels the illusion.

Yes, it is clear that thought 'I' does not point to anything real.

Thank you.

Since 'self' cannot be found doing seeing or hearing (and other senses) and thoughts ABOUT 'self' do not point to anything real it looks as though you do not find a separate self when you look for one?

Let me know if this isn't correct and we can investigate.

But how do things happen?

For example, choices and decisions?

Jon

[cosmos]

Hi

Thank you.

Since 'self' cannot be found doing seeing or hearing (and other senses) and thoughts ABOUT 'self' do not point to anything real it looks as though you do not find a separate self when you look for one?

Let me know if this isn't correct and we can investigate.

But how do things happen?

For example, choices and decisions?

Jon

Yes Jon, not able to find a 'self' when looking or whenever any of the 5 senses are present.

Things happen on their own accord. Like how the river flows, the sun rises and set, living and dying.

Choices and decisions are labels to what is happening and implies ownership of a 'self'. They are just another bunch of thoughts.

Love,

[JonathanR]

Hi Cosmos,

Thanks for your reply. I will respond asap but just to let you know, I may be a bit slow at that over the next three days as I'm inescapably busy helping in-laws. But will post soon.

Thanks,

Jon

[cosmos]

Hi Cosmos,

Thanks for your reply. I will respond asap but just to let you know, I may be a bit slow at that over the next three days as I'm inescapably busy helping in-laws. But will post soon.

Thanks,

Jon

Hi Jon,

No problem and thank you for all.

[JonathanR]

Hi Cosmos,

Things happen on their own accord. Like how the river flows, the sun rises and set, living and dying.

Choices and decisions are labels to what is happening and implies ownership of a 'self'. They are just another bunch of thoughts.

That's pretty cool.

So as you see it, what's going on when an essay is written that needs deliberation and shaping of ideas, for example? What about things like Intention or free will? Is all that happening of its own accord? No person 'doing' any if it?

What about choices between alternatives, such as choosing the right hand road rather than the left hand one? Does nobody choose?

Also, now we've reached this point in the inquiry can you let me know what you'd like to achieve, see or experience
that is not already seen?

Love

Jon

[cosmos]

Hi Cosmos,

That's pretty cool.

So as you see it, what's going on when an essay is written that needs deliberation and shaping of ideas, for example? What about things like Intention or free will? Is all that happening of its own accord? No person 'doing' any if it?

What about choices between alternatives, such as choosing the right hand road rather than the left hand one? Does nobody choose?

Also, now we've reached this point in the inquiry can you let me know what you'd like to achieve, see or experience
that is not already seen?

Love

Jon

Based on your example 'essay', we just let the ideas express themselves. It is the 'I' thought or being absorbed with thoughts in general that make them appear that there is a doer, same with typing these words. 'Intention' is another thought that 'I' automatically attaches to and empower it - a desire. Free will, another thought that requires a 'doer' to exist. Illusory.

Nobody chooses between the right-hand road or the left-hand, everything unfolds perfectly. Thoughts are like dust in the mirror which impairs the ability of truly seeing or being.

*Laughter*. Everything is perfect as it is. Nothing needs to be achieved, seen, or experience.

Thank you so much, Jon

[JonathanR]

You're very welcome Cosmos.

Now that were here, how do you feel now about what you said here

. However, without the help of the said substances, I am not able to reach the same heights.

Also

In your initial post you mentioned 'valid spiritual experiences' and 'confusion'.

Please let me know your current thoughts about these ?. Such questions are worth exploring. Just honestly unpacking bits of confusion or preoccupations can help very much.

Love

Jon

[cosmos]

You're very welcome Cosmos.

Now that were here, how do you feel now about what you said here

. However, without the help of the said substances, I am not able to reach the same heights.

Also

In your initial post you mentioned 'valid spiritual experiences' and 'confusion'.

Please let me know your current thoughts about these ?. Such questions are worth exploring. Just honestly unpacking bits of confusion or preoccupations can help very much.

Love

Jon

The experience then compared to now are still very distinct and different. Discerning factor of course is the interference or intake of the substances but they appear to tell the same tale. It is just that today is more relaxed while taking substances is like jumping off a cliff.

'Valid Spiritual Experiences' haha what utter nonsense. Each experience is valid in its own right.

Confusion. Hmm any question I try to write here, the answer in the form of thoughts immediately follows.. wow

[JonathanR]

. Valid Spiritual Experiences' haha what utter nonsense. Each experience is valid in its own right.

Ha ha ha! Yes.

. Confusion. Hmm any question I try to write here, the answer in the form of thoughts immediately follows.. wow

So no remaining confusion then?

I'd like to ask you a set of questions now.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Love

Jon

[cosmos]

I'd like to ask you a set of questions now.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Love

Jon

1) No separate entity in any way, shape or form ever.

2) The illusion of a separate self is due to the 'I' thought that was given by society. It was strengthened and reinforced through years of conditioning from the society as well as beliefs, knowledge accumulated. Upon recognizing that 'I' is just another thought, the illusion dissolves.

3) It feels light, liberating. Gentleness and relaxation. What is the difference? Everything is still the same. Feelings, thoughts come and go. Life still goes on unfolding as before, only that no 'I' to claim the experience. Past few days was constantly observing and observing thoughts. The distinction was clear that if the 'I' thought can be observed then 'I' is not I as it was before.

4) It was a gradual process, but each step and exercise brought more clarity. The final push was the question "Also, now we've reached this point in the inquiry can you let me know what you'd like to achieve, see or experience
that is not already seen?" This hit really hard and made me laugh out loud. What was 'I' seeking? Who is looking for who? It is plain and simple yet the thought 'I' likes to over-complicate things.

5)

a. Decision, intention, free will, choice, and control - all are by-products of the 'I' thought. They cannot exist otherwise. 'I' decide this, 'I' intend to, 'I choose that', 'I control this'. They are as real as 'I' can get.

b. Things happen. Just so. A good quote came to mind that goes like 'The moon is being reflected to the sea. Neither the moon nor the sea wants it to be reflected.'

c.To share what is found

d. Examples of what experience?

6) Would like to keep in touch or maybe share experiences

[cosmos]

Much love and gratitude