I Me Mine

[Clifftone]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The purpose of seeing that there is no real inherent self is to see the truth of who or what "I" am. My suffering is caused by thoughts or stories related to "I" or "me" where I am not good enough or somehow lacking.

What are you looking for at LU?
Liberation. I like that LU defines liberation as the clear, direct and unambiguous realization of the lack of a separate self. I'm looking for guidance in that area. I want to talk to someone who is liberated. A hard case, even - in other words, someone for whom this realization or seeing was difficult.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
A dialogue with someone who can help me see what is apparently hiding in plain sight. A dialogue with someone who can explain things that can only be conveyed through conversation and not just the written word. I'm tired of books.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Read lots of book, watched a lot of YouTube videos, mostly nonduality stuff. Meditated off and on, right now on but mainly for stress relief.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Artst]

Hi, Clifftone,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :). Glad you made it here. 

My name is Robyn. I can be your guide if that's okay with you. Should I call you Clifftone or is there another name you prefer?

I will do my best to guide you to see that the “self” is no more real than Santa Claus.

I will point the direction and you will be doing the work. 

A couple of things before proceeding: 
-Here's a link that shows how to use the quote function: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ[/
-Please try to keep up posting every day if you can for the sake of momentum. However things come up, of course, and that's okay. Just let me know when you're unable to respond and I will do the same for you. 
- Please be 100% honest and just write what's true for you. It works best to put aside teachings, books, and videos for the time being so you can be more available to focus on your own experience. That's where we'll look. 

If you're okay with everything so far, we can start. 

Warmly,

Robyn

[Clifftone]

Hi Robyn,

Thank you - I would love to have you as my guide. You can call me Cliff. I learned how to use the quotes, I will post every day or let you know if I am unable to, and I will set aside teachings, books, video, etc. for now. I'm okay with everything so far, so let's start! Just so you know, I'm in a Pacific standard time zone. Looking forward to this!

Cliff

[Clifftone]

Robyn, would there be a problem if I continue to meditate while we are working together?

[Clifftone]

Disregard - I see from other posts that it's okay to keep meditating :)

[Artst]

HI, Cliff,

SO sorry for the delay! Thanks for your patience. I was looking for your reply but simply didn't see your messages and didn't check my private messages. I'm here now and there shouldn't be a problem from now on. 🙂

I see that you already found out it's fine to keep meditating and thank you for letting me know that you're good with all that I sent you.

Cliff, although you address this a bit in the registration form, will you please share with me --

What are you looking for?
What do you hope for?
What is that you want to happen as an outcome of this conversation? 
Anything you want not to happen?

Sending love,

Robyn

[Clifftone]

Hi Robyn,

So glad we finally connected!

What are you looking for?

Peace of mind. Relief. The end of suffering. The end of seeking. Clarity. A quiet mind. Equanimity. Imperturbability. The kitchen sink, I guess.

What do you hope for?

I hope that seeing that I do not exist as a separate self will help me find what I'm looking for. I've heard that my expectations only get in the way so I try not to have them but it is difficult.

What is that you want to happen as an outcome of this conversation?

I want to truly see that "I" do not exist. I want to see it and know it and feel it in my bones, not just intellectually.

Anything you want not to happen?

My fear is that I just don't see it, like a joke that I don't understand. I have a tendency towards pessimism and the worst-case scenario, unfortunately. I don't want to spend a lot of time looking, going in circles, and in the end giving up because I just don't get it.

But in this case, I am hopeful!

[Artst]

Hi, Cliff,

So glad we finally connected!

Me too!

Peace of mind. Relief. The end of suffering. The end of seeking. Clarity. A quiet mind. Equanimity. Imperturbability.

Tall order! 😉If we succeed, it will be the entry point into peace.

I've heard that my expectations only get in the way so I try not to have them but it is difficult.

Yep, you have heard right. I do ask that you set aside your hopes, expectations and avoidances. They may still come up, but it will be your job to set them aside each time they come up, if they do. Ok?

I want to see it and know it and feel it in my bones, not just intellectually.

Our conversation will not be an intellectual one, Cliff, but not one about feeling it in your bones, either. More on that soon.

My fear is that I just don't see it, like a joke that I don't understand. I have a tendency towards pessimism and the worst-case scenario, unfortunately. I don't want to spend a lot of time looking, going in circles, and in the end giving up because I just don't get it.

I get that. I will do my best to guide you to see. No guarantees, though.

If you are willing to do your best to set aside expectaions, etc., let's jump right in! (Let me know if you're not willing or don't feel able to do this and we can discuss this further.

Otherwise...If you look for the I, what is there? Can you describe what you find?

Sending love,

Robyn

[Clifftone]

Hi Robyn,

If you are willing to do your best to set aside expectations, etc., let's jump right in! (Let me know if you're not willing or don't feel able to do this and we can discuss this further.

Yes, I am willing to do my best to set aside expectations. Jumping in with both feet and eyes wide open!

Otherwise...If you look for the I, what is there? Can you describe what you find?

This is the crux of it, isn't it? When I look for the I, I am aware of being aware. If looking with direct experience is defined as seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, and smelling, then I can see and touch my body. Heck, I can even smell my body. And although I understand intellectually that I am not my body, it still seems that way to me. If thinking and feeling are also part of direct experience, then when I look for the I, I get the "here I am" thought and a feeling of me-ness.

Cliff

[Artst]

Hi, Cliff,

Jumping in with both feet and eyes wide open!

I love it!

I understand intellectually that I am not my body, it still seems that way to me.

We're going to put aside all intellectual understandings for the purposes of this process.

From now on, all looking will be Direct Experience (DE) only. I see that you are somewhat acquainted with DE, which is good.

Here's an exercise for you to deepen your ability to access DE. I have made the questions that I'd like you to answer bold.

Direct Experience (DE) refers to your experience right now, without labels and thought stories. So, direct experience (DE) consists of color, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple noticing of thought at face value. What thought says, ie, the content of thought is NOT experience. This is evidenced by the fact that you cannot taste the word 'sweet'. When looking at direct experience (DE), you are looking at raw experience WITHOUT what thought says ABOUT the raw experience.
Thought layers concepts over direct experience. A thought (concept, idea, label) is never the actual. Some thoughts point to the actual, and some point to other thoughts, but the content of every single thought is just a story.

For this exercise, you can use an apple or substitute any other fruit, vegetable or simple object. 

Look at the apple. When looking at an apple, there's color, a thought saying "apple" and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."  What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known. 

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? 
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is just more thought. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, color(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Is there really an "apple" here, or only color and a thought ABOUT "apple?" Can "apple" be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. 

This is what is meant by ‘looking in direct experience" - what you know for sure.

- Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
- Color (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
- Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
- Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
- Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known. However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it a label?)


Sending love,

Robyn

[Clifftone]

Hi Robyn,

This is so cool!

Is there really an "apple" here, or only color and a thought ABOUT "apple?"

There is only color and a thought about "apple."

Can "apple" be found in actual experience?

No, "apple" can't be found in actual experience. In actual experience, there is only color and a thought about "apple." If I pick it up, there is a felt sense/sensation, and if I bite into it, there is also a taste and a smell.

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it a label?)

"Apple" isn't actually known. "Apple" is just a label. There is only color, sensation, taste, smell, and thought about "apple," but "apple" is indeed a label.

You know, I had read about direct experience and I thought I understood it, but your walking me through it makes me realize I was still layering thought on top of it. Thank you so much!

Cliff

[Artst]

HI, Cliff,

You know, I had read about direct experience and I thought I understood it, but your walking me through it makes me realize I was still layering thought on top of it.

I actually got goosebumps reading this! Well done!

So now, tell me what you find when you look for I, ok?

Sending love,

Robyn

[Clifftone]

Hi Robyn,

So now, tell me what you find when you look for I, ok?

When I look for "I," I can't see, smell, hear, taste or touch an "I." There is an "I" thought. There is an "I" feeling.

Interesting.

Cliff.

[Artst]

HI, Cliff,

When I look for "I," I can't see, smell, hear, taste or touch an "I." There is an "I" thought. There is an "I" feeling.

Interesting indeed. 😉 Tell me what you mean exactly that there is an "I" feeling. ding Where and what is this feeling?

Sending love,

Robyn

[Clifftone]

Hi Robyn,

Tell me what you mean exactly that there is an "I" feeling. ding Where and what is this feeling?

The "I" feeling comes up with the "I thought. It is a sensation in my head (brow/eyes) and chest area. If I had to describe it, it is a slight tension that separates it from surrounding areas.

Cliff