Seeing not seeing

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gondwana
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Seeing not seeing

Postby gondwana » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:36 pm

There seems to be something that I can only describe as being "behind" everything, unseeable, but I think that's just a story, too.
Yes, it is also part of the story, if you look close enough.

Is this clear?
Does any doubt remain?
If I'm really looking, all I can say is that there is only seeing, only experience, but that seems too simple!
Not at all, simple is good - simple is what we are looking for! Since we are trying to see the most fundamental underlying reality here.

When hearing a sound, is there anything other than the heard (the experience)?
When seeing a visual scene, is there anything other than the seen (the experience)?
Is there any ‘hearer’ there?
Or any ‘seer’ there at all?

Has there ever been a ‘self’, anywhere in existence, now or at any time in the past?
Or is this only a story?
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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Morena
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Re: Seeing not seeing

Postby Morena » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:18 pm

Yes, it is also part of the story, if you look close enough.

Is this clear?
Does any doubt remain?
Yes! This is too funny 😂 No doubts!

When hearing a sound, is there anything other than the heard (the experience)?
When seeing a visual scene, is there anything other than the seen (the experience)?
Is there any ‘hearer’ there?
Or any ‘seer’ there at all?
Not one here!

Has there ever been a ‘self’, anywhere in existence, now or at any time in the past?
Or is this only a story?

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Morena
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Re: Seeing not seeing

Postby Morena » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:20 pm

Whoops! I’m doing this on a phone and missed the last part.
Has there ever been a ‘self’, anywhere in existence, now or at any time in the past?
Or is this only a story?
Never ever. It’s always just been a story.

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gondwana
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Re: Seeing not seeing

Postby gondwana » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:21 pm

Beautiful :)

How does it feel to be no one?
How does it feel to have no story?
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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Morena
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Re: Seeing not seeing

Postby Morena » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:55 pm

How does it feel to be no one?
How does it feel to have no story?
Strangely enough very much the same as before, but also different in the sense that this is always the way it’s been, staring me right in the face! Time also seems to have collapsed somewhat in the sense that there’s only this experience right now. Memories and plans are just thoughts with no real substance.

I don’t know. It’s hard to put into words. 🤷‍♀️😂

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gondwana
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Re: Seeing not seeing

Postby gondwana » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:14 am

Ahh, you are through :)

Indeed, this is the way it has always been, all that was required was to see it!!

And time, as was seen now, is only a thought! Hence the experience of collapse. The only reality is the present moment, all thoughts about past or future are also experienced in the present moment. We can still use memory and planning when necessary, but there is less need to dwell there...it is seen now as just one more part of the illusion.

Take a couple of days, and let these new realisations settle in.

Write in here as often as you wish during this time, feel free to rant and share new realisations as they happen!

After that, I will send the final questions once you are ready :)

Thanks!
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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Morena
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Re: Seeing not seeing

Postby Morena » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:12 pm

Ok!

I feel like I understand in an experiential way “form is emptiness and emptiness is form,” and “everything is resolved in the unborn.”

This is hard to put into words, but it seems like this realization will grow and take deeper root as the momentum of this personality shifts to incorporate a true understanding of reality.

Anyway, it’s interesting to get lost in thoughts then have this view pop back onto center stage, as it were.

Very playful, indeed!

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gondwana
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Re: Seeing not seeing

Postby gondwana » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:17 am

Yes! Very fun indeed! Keep playing with this, enjoy the play, and let me know what comes up :)

It will continue to grow. To unfold, as we say here.
“form is emptiness and emptiness is form,” and “everything is resolved in the unborn.”
That’s a nice elegant way to put it.

In truth, this experience is completely beyond thought, i.e. non-conceptual. Beyond concepts also means beyond words, literally. This is why we cannot just tell someone how it is directly. It is not possible! Thought/words/language simply cannot contain it. The same way we cannot ever fully describe the experience of seeing the colour red. The best we can do is point, or many just use metaphor to hint at it. This will be obvious in every spiritual text you read now! :)
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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Morena
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Re: Seeing not seeing

Postby Morena » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:48 pm

In truth, this experience is completely beyond thought, i.e. non-conceptual. Beyond concepts also means beyond words, literally. This is why we cannot just tell someone how it is directly. It is not possible! Thought/words/language simply cannot contain it. The same way we cannot ever fully describe the experience of seeing the colour red. The best we can do is point, or many just use metaphor to hint at it. This will be obvious in every spiritual text you read now! :)
For sure!

It’s funny how much thoughts with ego content try to rail against this realization and “regain control.” But control of what? Lol

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gondwana
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Re: Seeing not seeing

Postby gondwana » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:48 am

It’s funny how much thoughts with ego content try to rail against this realization and “regain control.” But control of what? Lol
Yes! And WHAT is apparently trying to regain control? Only a thought :D


So, here are the final questions:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything else to add?
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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Morena
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Re: Seeing not seeing

Postby Morena » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:53 pm

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Nope and nope!
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The self is a conceptual thought framework, and so is just a small part of the matrix of thought experiences. Because language is such a huge part of it, I would assume that it begins once we start to learn to understand and speak, although since time is also a conceptual thought framework, it's hard to say when it starts, or if it ever really started at all(especially since the illusion itself is only the content of thoughts, and there's no one to be deluded).

It's hard to put into words, but the illusion of self seems like a semi-convenient "software" for individual bodies to navigate the world, similar to the framework that breaks experience into manageable separate selves or entities/objects when in reality there's more of a singular unfolding.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It feels about the same as before. Thoughts keep doing their thing with the exception that they have less (and less) of a narrative of control and individuation.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Actually looking at thoughts and realizing that everything is spontaneous, with a narrative happening within that spontaneity.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Decision, intention, free will, choice, and control are all convenient (but ultimately false) narratives. I don't know what makes things happen, and would venture to say that no individual thing makes anything else happen. There are no individual things. There is happening.

Who is there to be responsible?

Interestingly, none of this changes this thought narrative that I should continue to get up, go to work, try to make the world . a better place, exercise, eat, sleep. Like I said before, I finally get "form is emptiness, and emptiness, form."
6) Anything else to add?
Thank you, thank you, thank you!

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gondwana
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Re: Seeing not seeing

Postby gondwana » Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:58 am

You are so welcome :)

I will take our thread to the other guides now, to see if they have any further questions.

This should not take too long.
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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gondwana
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Location: Australia

Re: Seeing not seeing

Postby gondwana » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:43 pm

There are no more questions :)

You will shortly receive a Private Message from one of the other admins, with further instructions.
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.


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