Say "I". What does that point to?

[jimmy]

I would delete that last post if I could. Ravings of a lunatic. This seems a better description of the loop:

I want to know who I am.
Who is this “I” who is looking?
I don’t know. All attempts to find “I” turn up empty. So, “I” will not find “me” because “I” doesn’t exist.
There is no “one” actually looking, and there is no “one” there to find. An idea cannot look or find. Kerplunk.

[Elena]

I would delete that last post if I could. Ravings of a lunatic. This seems a better description of the loop:

I want to know who I am.
Who is this “I” who is looking?

Read this, it was inspired by our chat long time ago, but took me that much time to construct it in a readable form:

http://completehumanity.blogspot.com/20 ... quiry.html

All attempts to find “I” turn up empty.

All attempt to find Unicorn will turn up empty.

But the different is when I tell you go and find Unicorn in your room, you won't even go - you just know - its an illusion.
When I tell you - go to find "I" you still searching for it.

So, “I” will not find “me” because “I” doesn’t exist.

you see it or you analyzing?

There is no “one” actually looking, and there is no “one” there to find. An idea cannot look or find. Kerplunk.

Very cool.

Tell me, do not ran away. Tell me what comes up when I am asking you the following:

DO YOU EXIST?

[Elena]

seems like you stuck here. Tell me if you can't unswear. Please do not shut down. I really want to curse on you for you shutting down, but i can't here on this forum! Now I know why you, bastard, choose this place, not email! ha!

So if you can't unswear it, what feeling/s comes up? what thought/s comes up? when I ask this question : Do you exist?

[jimmy]

So if you can't unswear it, what feeling/s comes up? what thought/s comes up? when I ask this question : Do you exist?

Do I exist? I can feel the urge to look frantically, everywhere. I call out, but no one answers. I exist as the seeker, the unliberated one. I realize "seeker" and "unliberated" are ideas, pointing to a someone, and there is where I can be found. Your comparison between the unicorn and "me" are correct. I "know" the unicorn does not exist and I can see it. "Me" I keep looking for. That looking is where I feel I exist, and I've followed the impossibility of "no me" not being able to find a "me" which does not exist. I'm having moments of dropping away which come with intense looking at that thread, but they pass. The "I" jumps back in so quickly and the search resumes. It's as if what I find is too simple, too powerful, and too final. Swear all you like, I already know you are a sweetie.

[Elena]

Elena says see “table, real, self, not.” She also says self is like Santa, a word pointing to something not real. In the same sense that Santa is an idea, not a real thing, so is self an idea, not a real thing. What is the table? There is no more truth to the word table than there is to Santa. Both point at an idea. Both are empty inside. Both have no inherent truth. They are both labels. What is, is life endlessly flowing always, as table, as Santa, as self. Only words create the illusion of separation of one expression being something which the other is not.

There is no self, no Santa, no table. All words pointing at an idea. There is no "thing" other than what is. There is no inherent truth to any thing.

all words pointing to an experience in reality

some experience real - table, body, guitar, sound vibration
and some are illusory, only a label - self, santa, unicorn, music

true?

[jimmy]

I know what you are saying, but there is no inherent truth to any of those words. They all point. There are three legged tables and four legged tables and a board on the floor which I eat off is also a table. What is table? The word has no inherent truth. There is no table contained within a table. The white-bearded man standing outside the store in a red suit laughing ho, ho, ho is Santa in the same way. We don’t know there is no such thing because we can’t know, we only assume there is no Santa. We cannot know anything. What seems important here is not this, but the process mind goes through identifying with an idea, whether the idea has any illusion of substance or not.

Elena, I don't want to waste time here, but with that insight yesterday, I walked myself all the way through to the one truth. If there is nothing, no thing which has an inherent truth of its own, then everything is rising out of and falling back into the same one thing. There is no separation, no separate thing. There is only the one thing with infinite expression. The 10,000 things are as one. Life always is happening, only the labeling gives the mind the illusion of this and that, me and you, or a separate self. No self, no other.

There is something subtlety different now. I will be glad to answer questions, but I think I should be with this for another day. What do you think?

[Elena]

I know what you are saying, but there is no inherent truth to any of those words. They all point.

.

Thats nice insight, my friend. But some of these labels point to reality and some - to illusion

See, this is the trick here. We do want you not ponder in the head and juggle with thoughts, but really look at the difference - not in the head, have to warn you, but really look - take this paradox and look plainly just like you look
at your cup of coffee. When you look at your cup of coffee, you do not look inside your head, right? You just look at the cup of coffee with your eyes. Same here. So then your mind will notice the difference between what we call here real and not. That is what we are trying to do. So it is experiential exercise.

What seems important here is not this, but the process mind goes through identifying with an idea, whether the idea has any illusion of substance or not.

That's what is happening, but for the purpose of experiencing "I" is not exist and drop identification this is not important here.

We want to make experiment and point the mind to see the truth. You already know the truth, but mind is not. Mind need to get it experientially. So by concluding that all words point to something in reality that is real or imaginary is right, but to show mind the difference between one and another - this is what is essential.

Elena, I don't want to waste time here, but with that insight yesterday, I walked myself all the way through to the one truth. If there is nothing, no thing which has an inherent truth of its own, then everything is rising out of and falling back into the same one thing. There is no separation, no separate thing. There is only the one thing with infinite expression. The 10,000 things are as one. Life always is happening, only the labeling gives the mind the illusion of this and that, me and you, or a separate self. No self, no other.

Yes, but you came to this intellectually, it won't make lasting difference, even thought the insight was nice.

[jimmy]

I'm lost. I do not get this. I'm going back to the beginning of our thread and start over. It felt so much closer then.

[jimmy]

There it is, in my last post, all over the place.

“I’m” lost. “I” do not get this. “I’m” going back, . . . “It” felt so much closer. “I,” “I,” “I” followed by an “it.” That’s great! Who is this “I” and what is this “it”? Those two questions, when asked, immediately create a silence. No one steps up to answer. Then, there’s peace, which is quickly overrun with a fresh stream of thoughts to start all over again.

[Elena]

Felt so much closer

won't work, Jimmy. It's either you see that "I" does not exist or not - it's kinda binary. It's so simple, mind disregard it and assume he knows this already and take you forward to find "WHO" then, if "I" does not exist, then "who am i?". This is valid question, but for the sake of crossing the gate now, what we call - seeing the illusion of 'I' now, clearly, surely, we do not engage in the other question "Who am I", because this question imply that there some "Who" and we will try to find it, instead of concentration on looking that 'I" is an illusion and does not exist. I hope you understand this and will postpone to fine "Who". If "Who" comes up, just tell the mind wait and you will engage in this inquiry after, but now, tell the mind, let's look and see the illusion. As I told you - we want you to look so the mind register this difference - real and imaginary. We assume - real is what exist, what can be seeing, smell, taste, touch by 5 senses and illusionary that points only to the thought. So look again. You need to compare real and imaginary, one by one, show mind the difference. Use any imaginary object we already worked with - unicorn or santa and any real objects including physical in front of you, or any objects that can touch 5 senses: feeling, sensations, etc. If you forgot how to do it - look up in the beginning I explained, just again go over and look. Even if mind will tell you Oh, we already read it, and did it, and so on - go and look anyway, and look again. Write what you saw.

[jimmy]

Having lunch, I watch the sense of self determining how large a bite to take. Bite after bite. Then, I’m looking outside and the sense of self arises as a thought to report that “I’m” looking outside. Then, thought arises that “I” haven’t been monitoring the bite size, and yet “eating” continues just fine without a thought as to how large a bite is eaten. Sense of self seems to follow attention. It arises as an afterthought.

So, I see how self operates as an idea. But I do not experience no self. There is no “I” to experience no self. The idea of self is in the way of “seeing” no self.

I see the truth of no self, but now I want an experience. No self is what is, and there isn’t going to be any “new” experience of what is, other than what already is. It’s never going to be “my” experience, is it?

All this is in the head. What do you see, here, right now? Self or no self? No one answers. No one stands up to respond.

[Elena]

Having lunch, I watch the sense of self determining how large a bite to take. Bite after bite. Then, I’m looking outside and the sense of self arises as a thought to report that “I’m” looking outside. Then, thought arises that “I” haven’t been monitoring the bite size, and yet “eating” continues just fine without a thought as to how large a bite is eaten. Sense of self seems to follow attention. It arises as an afterthought.

this was good noticing.

sense of self - exist, self - not.

is it true?

So, I see how self operates as an idea. But I do not experience no self. There is no “I” to experience no self. The idea of self is in the way of “seeing” no self.

there is only experience, no "I", no "no self", no "self", no experiencer. Only experience. No noun. Only verb. Movement of life. Experiencing.

I see the truth of no self, but now I want an experience.

See that experience going of the thought of "you wanting experience"

No self is what is, and there isn’t going to be any “new” experience of what is, other than what already is. It’s never going to be “my” experience, is it?

Baby does not have concept "I" formed yet in the head. So it's just pure raw experience. Hunger sensations, crying, movement to the breast. No "I" thought to register stimuli and operate the body and feeling. All happening automatically.

All this is in the head. What do you see, here, right now? Self or no self? No one answers. No one stands up to respond.

you can't see either self or no self. Both are concept in the head.

[jimmy]

you can't see either self or no self. Both are concept in the head.

“I” can’t see anything because there is no “I”. It’s right here, in this comment. Both are a concept in the head, neither are real. “I” will never see because there is no “I” to see. I will never, ever see anything because there is no “I” to see anything, ever. Nothing’s ever going to happen to “I”. I have noticed that “I” never get anything, or experience anything, or more importantly, know anything, because there is no “I” there. It’s a loop of illusion. My experience is not knowing, because this sense of self is an idea, not something which can have an experience. Experience arises with the senses. What is not, cannot have an experience. No self to experience. No self to know. No self to accept. No self to do anything. There is no search. There isn’t anything to do. It’s a zero game. How ironic. There’s nothing to read and nothing to re-read. There’s never going to be anything here. I can pretend as a game forever, if I like, it will not change anything, ever. Empty. Don’t bother to pick up the conversation again. There’s nothing there. Stop. This is why it is here, right now, and always has been, because this is it. There isn’t anything else. There you have it.

[Elena]

Wow, great.

So how does it feel to be liberated?

And from what?

[jimmy]

Elena, this is different. There is an emptiness that is new. Thoughts arise but there is nothing for them to cling to. They slide away almost as fast as they arise. There is no identification with any of them. I'd like a day to be with this and then report back to you.