emptyfu;

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xiaolongnu
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Re: emptyfu;

Postby xiaolongnu » Fri May 11, 2018 10:58 pm

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
There is no such a thing as a separate me or self at all. It was never there at the first place. It only exists in mind, which is a bunch of thoughts, formless and shapeless, arising out of nothing and disappearing in nothingness.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of separate self is a body-mind structure, which believes its own independent exist. Through this illusion, the Me believes itself is real, and the world outside is real, the other is real. So there is me and the world. And because of this (imagined )separation, there is a constant feeling of lost, that the me somehow is never good enough.
when it starts? I can't/don't know when it starts. When we are in deep sleep, there is no sense of a separate me. But the moment we wake up, this me sense seems to be there immediately and says 'I ' wake up! while the fact is waking up just happens spontaneously! this 'I' who claims is just a redundant thought. When this I thought is believed, the doer is born. But actually this doer is just a thought, which has no influence at all on what is going to happen or not. All the body function is just operating on its own, for example the circulation of blood, the breathing, heart beating, digestion, secretion of our glands, sense of hunger or thirst or warm or cold, and all kind of biochemical reactions in our body...etc. None of them is managed or controlled by this me thought. So obviously, It is a illusion to believe this Me thought be the body.
The separate self is an illusive doer, but it can't see its own illusion. So this dream doer becomes a claimer who takes ownership for what is happening and so the misery starts... Like I'm working as acupuncturist. I need to make certain diagnosis for each patient I see. It happens that sometimes I just can't get a clue and it takes time to find out, sometimes i just know it straight away. Now I see when I get the right diagnosis, it is what happening, not ' I' know it, but the knowing just comes up to my mind at that moment. And when i can't find the right diagnosis, it is also what is happening, which is essentially the same as when I know it. By seeing this through, this illusive me has been checked out---- it was never there anyway.
With thoughts and emotions, it works the same. Without a separate me ( a dream me), there is no ownership of the thoughts and emotions. so the battle of trying to control them also stops.

Hopefully that I've covered the question. (again the I, you guys know what i mean). If not, it is what is happening.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It feels tremendously relaxed and liberating to see this through!
I think the dialogue has helped me to see it (Me) more clearly, its subtleties. Some times it is still active, but it can be quickly seen through. The day before yesterday, exactly 2 weeks ago, my husband passed away. I got a phone call from his second son, concerning about the inheritance. Since this son had hardly any contact with the father before his death, I felt quite upset , angry as well, finding hem stupid and cold. I was, or better to say, the emotions hanging there for a day. Then I realized that I have taken it personally, which is the trademark of the function of Me. I could see then that his phone call was just what was happening, it was life expressing itself at that moment in such a way. And I also don't need to take the anger or whatever emotions personally. Whenever things getting personal, they become heavy burden.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
I can't really say that there was some last bit which pushed me off. It seems there are many bits which finally making the illusion collapsing (hopefully :) . My spiritual journey started unexpectedly 4 years ago. There was a sudden shift, since then i became a searcher. But it wasn't until half an year ago i came to realize that the ego i was trying so desperately to get rid of never existed! In the passed 2, 3 months my journey got very much intensified by itself. By accident (:) ! ) I came across Elina on Youtube. Never heard about her, somehow i clicked her videos. By watching one of them, when I heard she saying ' you are perfect as you are, what does it mean? ...'' it was such a striking! I was crying and crying upon those words, some kind of shift must happened I guess. But there was nothing spectacular afterwards.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
A separate me always believes it has to make decision and having free will to chose. Because of the sense of separation, it always needs security, so it has to be in control. And its intention is always of self interest, self importance.
In fact, decision making happens, no planner. Life has no intention, it is a free flow of unfolding of the unknown. Free will is the dream of the dream Me. Choice and control are both the dreaming material/contents of Me. Things are happening by themselves, spontaneously, like coming and going of each breath, like leaves dancing in the wind, like birds singing, no direction, no intention, no mistakes.
I'm not responsible for anything. like half an hour ago, there was enormous grieving arising in me, I missed my husband. so I just cried. and after some while, the sadness was just gone. So I'm not responsible for my emotions, they are not mine emotions. they are free to come and go. And in my work, i welcome that I don't know just as I welcome the known. There is no worry or stress anymore of ' I'm not good enough because i don't know.' all those nonsense just falling away.

So I've been working hard to answer all your questions. now I'm waiting for your reply, curiously.

much love
Mei

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Re: emptyfu;

Postby Artst » Sun May 13, 2018 7:44 am

Dear Mei,

My apologies for the delay. I have read your answers and there is some clarity. There are more questions for you -- there are areas where there is conjecture and theory which can be addressed by re-directing toward Direct Experience.

Today was extremely busy and it's quite late now so the full reply will be tomorrow.

Sending lots of love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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xiaolongnu
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Re: emptyfu;

Postby xiaolongnu » Sun May 13, 2018 10:05 am

dear Robyn
There are more questions for you -- there are areas where there is conjecture and theory which can be addressed by re-directing toward Direct Experience.
thank you so much. This is exactly hpw i feel.
no hurry.
love
mei

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Re: emptyfu;

Postby Artst » Mon May 14, 2018 3:45 am

Dear Mei,

Here we go!

For this, consider only Direct Experience. You skipped usual guiding process where there is learning to answer only regarding Direct Experience rather than concepts, learned information, theory -- in short, content of thought. Direct experience includes what is seen, heard, felt (physical sensation), smelled, felt (emotion) existence thoughts. Content of thought is, of course, noticed as content of thought, but not what to reference to answer the questions. This was a little crash course! I hope it makes sense. Let me know. Answers to these questions will reveal if more is needed for this to be clear.
It only exists in mind
Where and what is mind in direct experience (DE)?
which is a bunch of thoughts, formless and shapeless, arising out of nothing and disappearing in nothingness.
Yes, this describes thoughts very well.
The illusion of separate self is a body-mind structure, which believes its own independent exist.

What generates thoughts?
In Direct Experience what is it "which believes its own independent existence?"
So there is me and the world. And because of this (imagined )separation, there is a constant feeling of lost, that the me somehow is never good enough.
Does "me" exist? If so, please describe it, including location.
this me sense seems to be there immediately and says
Mei, In the first questions, the answer was that separate self exists only as thought. What is the 'me sense?'

There is more to clarify, Mei, but let's start with these. We can step back further if necessary.

Sending lots of love,
Robyn
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xiaolongnu
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Re: emptyfu;

Postby xiaolongnu » Mon May 14, 2018 9:43 am

Dear Robyn,
Thank you for your patience!
Where and what is mind in direct experience (DE)?
Mind is experienced directly as appearing of thoughts, basically, which can be seen or observed, but not as some solid form. Where? I can't really localize it, in the brain? i guess-- but this is not my DE.
What generates thoughts?
In DE, thoughts seem to be just appearing out of nowhere. They just popped up. And i can't know what will be my next thoughts in minutes later or tomorrow. There is no thing which generates thoughts. But this 'Me thought' can generate millions of new thoughts.
In Direct Experience what is it "which believes its own independent existence?"
'I' or 'Me' believe that I'm separated from the rest of the world, my skin is the boundary between me and the others. And it seems quite obviously, I have this body which seems to be an independent existence, and 'i' have emotions, feelings and life stories of my own.
Does "me" exist? If so, please describe it, including location.
This 'me', seems so real, basically as this body. But by really looking at it, it can't be found or localized. It seems to be in the body, but body functions totally without this 'me'.
What is the 'me sense?'
The 'me sense' is the sense of separation which is brought about by 'I' thought.

much love
Mei

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Re: emptyfu;

Postby Artst » Tue May 15, 2018 1:33 am

Dear Mei,

No patience required -- and It's my pleasure to guide you.
Mind is experienced directly as appearing of thoughts, basically, which can be seen or observed, but not as some solid form. Where? I can't really localize it, in the brain? i guess-- but this is not my DE.
Right -- not in DE. Any DE that it's in the brain? Only interested in DE here.
In DE, thoughts seem to be just appearing out of nowhere. They just popped up. And i can't know what will be my next thoughts in minutes later or tomorrow. There is no thing which generates thoughts.
Beautiful!
But this 'Me thought' can generate millions of new thoughts.
Really? How is it known that the Me thought is generating other thoughts? Is it true?
'I' or 'Me' believe that I'm separated from the rest of the world, my skin is the boundary between me and the others. And it seems quite obviously, I have this body which seems to be an independent existence.
Is there an 'I' or 'Me?" If not, how can it believe anything?
'i' have emotions, feelings and life stories of my own.
Is there an I that owns anything?
The 'me sense' is the sense of separation which is brought about by 'I' thought.
Please describe this 'me sense.' What and where is it exactly?

Enjoy, Mei!

Much love,

Robyn
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xiaolongnu
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Re: emptyfu;

Postby xiaolongnu » Wed May 16, 2018 8:26 pm

Dear Robyn
Really? How is it known that the Me thought is generating other thoughts? Is it true?
This Me thought is the 'I', then come the thoughts of ' I'm a woman, a Chinese, a mother, a daughter, a wife....etc. ' Because the appearing of these thoughts is later than ' I'' So they seem to be generated by 'I' thought. But even this 'I' thought is also perceivable, it comes of out of nowhere. All those identities, Chinese, mother, daughter, wife and so on, are just thoughts! and exist only in mind. isn't it? Am i answering your questions?
'I' or 'Me' believe that I'm separated from the rest of the world, my skin is the boundary between me and the others. And it seems quite obviously, I have this body which seems to be an independent existence.
Is there an 'I' or 'Me?" If not, how can it believe anything?
'' I'' is just a thought. So it is impossible for a thought to believe or not to believe anything! OMG, love your question! so this statement of '' 'I' believe that there is a separated Me'' is just another thought! popping out of no where again. But, this thought of ' there is a separated me' is believed to be true, by what then? I'm now thinking loudly, so this believe just happens! right? nobody is doing the believing. And when it is seen through, nobody is seeing it! Believing or seeing through is just a happening. right?
[Is there an I that owns anything? /quote]
This I thought doesn't own anything. It doesn't even exist! so crazy, it seems so bloody seriously true !!! i can't stop laughing now! There are emotions, feelings, body sensations, none of them belongs to anybody.
Please describe this 'me sense.' What and where is it exactly?
dearest Robyn, i wish you could see me bursting into laughing! or we could laugh together ! Now i can't describe this bloody 'me sense' any more. You must be kidding, how can I describe something which never exists?!


I have great fun by answering your great questions. how wonderful! thank you so so much!

much love

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Re: emptyfu;

Postby Artst » Thu May 17, 2018 6:24 am

Dear Mei,

Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful!

Do you have any questions? Anything unclear?

Love,

Robyn
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xiaolongnu
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Re: emptyfu;

Postby xiaolongnu » Thu May 17, 2018 8:01 am

Dear Robyn,
Thank you and thank you more.
All seems so clear. i love clarity!
The question will be do You have more questions for me?

love and big hug
mei

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Re: emptyfu;

Postby xiaolongnu » Thu May 17, 2018 10:16 am

Dear Robyn,
As regarding this body-mind structure. Mind is a bunch of thoughts. And the body, is a bunch of (physical) sensations which come and go. In DE, body also doesn't exist right? Of course there is a physical form. But I mean, there are only experiences of certain sensations, which belongs to nobody. so actually this body-mind thing is also a thought. isn't it?
much love
Mei

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Re: emptyfu;

Postby Artst » Fri May 18, 2018 2:35 am

Dear Mei,
Mind is a bunch of thoughts. And the body, is a bunch of (physical) sensations which come and go. In DE, body also doesn't exist right? Of course there is a physical form. But I mean, there are only experiences of certain sensations, which belongs to nobody. so actually this body-mind thing is also a thought. isn't it?
Outstanding!

As for questions, would you mind answering the final questions from the new place of clarity? (By the way, I share 'your' love of clarity!)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

It is an absolute pleasure guiding you!

Much love,

Robyn
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xiaolongnu
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Re: emptyfu;

Postby xiaolongnu » Fri May 18, 2018 5:41 pm

Dear Robyn,
here we go.
) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
There is no separate 'me' at all, not to be found any where. Not even in the mind, which is a bunch of thoughts flowing or not flowing. There was never a 'me'.
) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of a separate Me is the believing of a body-mind structure be the reality, which means taking Me basically as the body with its own thoughts and emotions. Illusion is seeing thoughts as a separate entity. In illusion there are Me and others, all separate from each other.
When this illusion starts and how it works ? I have no idea when it starts, finding this question difficult to answer. It starts in time, which is also a thought. Illusion is something never really exists, how can it start then? When thoughts are taken to be reality, illusion starts. When thoughts are seen as nothing more than thoughts, illusion is seen through then. What is seen now is things just are happening. But in illusion things are happening to Me.
I still find difficult to answer the question 2.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Seeing that a separate Me never exists, I suddenly burst into laughter, which happened before though. All seems lighter, I mean the sense of heaviness, stickiness seem to fall off. In the past few days, I've been missing my husband so much that it seems I was suffering. And after seeing it, there is a realization that grieving or even heartbroken is never a problem. It is life expressing itself in such a way at the eternal now. Only if we claim the ownership of grief or heartbroken, the suffering starts. But, even the claiming is done by nobody but life itself. What a liberation to see this. After all, even the suffering is a dream. Why on earth is life playing this game of dreaming and awakening, of life and death, nobody ever knows. It is a mystery.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
The last push might be one of your questions. By looking into it deeply, there is a sudden clarity, it is like seeing through a joke.
Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Things like decision, intention, free will, choice and control are all just later coming, redundant thoughts. decision making happens, but no decision maker. There is nobody, a separate entity there to have intention or free will or control. Free will or control are all illusions.

thank you so much! please keep asking me until there is a total clarity.
much love
Mei

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Re: emptyfu;

Postby xiaolongnu » Fri May 18, 2018 6:04 pm

Dear Robyn,
I just see that i haven't finished the last questions.
What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
There is NOTHING makes things happen. They are happening by themselves. Cause and effect are just thoughts as well right? There is no Me to be responsible for anything at all. Responsibility is an illusion. Physically, body is functioning perfectly by itself, getting old or sick or dying ! Emotionally, moods are appearing or disappearing, nobody is operating them. My husband suddenly raised up from his chair trying to walk away, and then he fell over and broke his thigh. So there was a thought of standing up appearing out of nowhere, so the body stood up and fell and the leg was broken. All these just happened. nobody was responsible for anything.

much love
mei

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Re: emptyfu;

Postby Artst » Sat May 19, 2018 6:23 am

Dear Mei,
when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
For this, does a new-born baby have an "I" thought? How does it develop?
Cause and effect are just thoughts as well right?
If there's a doubt about that, what is it?

What you have shared about the shift in relationship to grieving is powerful, Mei. My heart is with you. Without the illusion of I, no suffering.

Much love,

Robyn
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Re: emptyfu;

Postby xiaolongnu » Sun May 20, 2018 12:14 pm

Dear Robyn,
For this, does a new-born baby have an "I" thought? How does it develop?
A new-born baby has no 'I' thought. But how do I know this? There is just a knowing. A baby is one with everything, no experience of separation. crying, drinking, sleeping just happen.
How does the ' I ' thought develop ? The baby got a name, he or she shall be addressed each time by that name. And some how at certain point, the baby got a sense that he or she is that name. A baby is treated constantly by those people around him or her as a separated entity. Because these people all are convinced that they themselves are separate individuals. So this ' I ' thought has been stamped into the being from the very beginning, getting further strengthened later in the upbringing, education, and culture, etc. There is no way for a baby, or human being to avoid the development of this illusion. On the other hand, I heard people say that at very young age, there is a seemingly energetic shift which brings about the contraction from boundlessness to limitation. I do believe this is the case. But this is not my DE, I mean experiencing this shift of contraction.
As far as I can concern, because there is a body, which is almost like a evidence of "Me'' , it is so easily to get identified with this body.
If there's a doubt about that, what is it?
Good question! because i can't come up with an answer! Cause and effect are indeed thoughts, second-hand and conditioned.
When there is a doubt about this. The doubt itself is another thought! Thank you for keeping me looking!

much love
Mei


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