Freedom of reality

[Canfora]

Hi Avuso,

I asked, to be sure what time is better to write an answer and check for guidance update, cause I'm not having a permanent Internet connection here and because I suspected that there are some hours of difference with Thailand.
But its all fine!

Yes, it's all fine! Don't worry with that, thank you for letting me know you may have issues with the internet connection.

Identification with the one who is looking is sometimes very loose, but as I was mentioning, in certain situations something is trigger strong identification in form of attachments, strong emotions etc.

Let's explore "identification".

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken. This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel identification with a self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. So, keep looking to what seems to be the reason why you are stuck in the belief that you are a separate self. You are doing fine!

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of identification very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it.

Keep the focus of attention on the identification as a self and inquire:

Does the identification as a self have a location?
Does the identification as a self have a shape or a size?
Does the identification as a self say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does the identification do this exactly?
Does the identification as a self have any characteristics or attributes?
What is the identification as a self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

[Avuso]

Hi, Canfora!
Thanks for explanations, example was very good, but nevertheless -

It feels like the "self" has a location in the middle of the chest, where I point my finger, if I have to say me or I,thats were it automatically goes.

It doesn't feel to have a clear shape, size cause it is felt as a sensation. If a stronger emotion comes up that "self", sensation and idea of me is also felt stronger.

It doesn't say anything actually, it is just appearing as an answer to enquiry, don't have any idea why and how this sensation is coming up mostly there..

As a sensation I could describe it as being contractive, I feel some hardness, heaviness too.

It appears that the identification as a self is "made of" sensation and thoughts following that sensation.

By writing this It actually seems quite foolish.. Could it really be like this..


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[Canfora]

Hi Avuso,

Well done!

By writing this It actually seems quite foolish.. Could it really be like this..

The separate self is an abstraction. Like time, for example. It is something that doesn't have physical, definable characteristics. It only exists in the conceptual realms, like Santa Claus, The Avengers, the Equator, or a pink unicorn.
And that's why you are saying that your attempt to find an I seems quite foolish. Because you are applying the "wrong tools" - the tools that you've learned to use to understand something concrete - to understand something that is abstract, conceptual, imaginary. It's very good that you can feel the foolishness behind this quest! Usually, when we think about our self, the mind just go round and round, like a dog chasing it's own tale, stuck in circular thinking.

I'm not sure if you understand what I'm saying above, so I suggest that you see for yourself what I mean doing an exercise about the difference between our ideas about time and our actual immediate experience. Try the exercise, write the answers and let me know if you've understood what I wrote above.

Time Exercise

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

[Avuso]

No, there is no experience of "now" moving anywhere,it is just "now" all the time. Only this moment of now is what we have, no other moments are there, no movement of moments.
It seems that events are following each other because of memories and experience of expected happenings taking place. But actually we can directly experience only everything in this moment, cause past and future are only movies of mind.

Present moment is not moving anywhere, it has no beginning. It is the smallest possible unit of perception, don't have tools to measure that thou. Maybe as short as mosquito bite or eye blink, as soon as I can notice it, it is the present moment for me, but I understand that there are more subtle things from what I can perceive, which still exist in present, therefore I would say it is the shortest fraction of perception of reality. .

It starts in our subjective perception as soon as we are aware of it but it is not dependent on perception,therefore newer ending, beyond concepts.

It seems like it becomes past as soon as we think about it, because then we are lost in thought process, label and recall something from memory. But even while doing these things we are in the present moment, cause we are attending to what is happening.

Past is a recollection of experiences, labeled according to the idea of time.

Objectively there is no such thing as the experience of time, cause everything is happening at present moment which is all what is, even thoughts about past, future are happening there. Without concepts and labels, things are just happening as they are always in present. Sun is just shining, clock is just doing its work, without beliefs and labels there is no time, no clock counting time, no sun beginning the day etc..

Actually "Now", "the present moment" is just an idea, the same as idea of time and other concepts.. And idea of separate self as well I suppose..

Everything just is.. Out of ignorance and comfort we put labels to everything being experienced. But experiences has nothing to do with our labels.
Life is just happening, mind is just happening, Body is just happening..




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[Canfora]

That's a beautiful post Avuso, thank you, I've enjoyed reading it. Well done.

Actually "Now", "the present moment" is just an idea, the same as idea of time and other concepts.. And idea of separate self as well I suppose..

Don't suppose... look. Focus in a specific aspect of what is going on right now, instead of pondering these issues. If time is what is happening now, that's the only "place" where you can find what you are looking for. So, notice what is here now and report what you see happening. I'm not sure what is making you believe that you are a separate self at the time being but let's look to something that is always happening as a way to check if a real self can be found: hearing.

Check if you can find a you by doing the below exercise:

Hearing Exercise

Find somewhere quiet to sit. Rest for a moment and listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside. Whatever it is, I'll just refer to it as 'what can be heard'.

1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?
2) Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what can be heard'?
3) An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? a pair of ears? Can these be found doing the hearing? Or is there just 'what can be heard'?
What do you find?

Can an INHERENT HEARER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

**************************************************
Question: how are things going on? Is this approach helpful? How do you feel about doing these kind of exploration?

Take care,
C

[Avuso]

Hi, Canfora!
I really liked both excercises, they did a great job of pointing out what is actually happening.. My "suppose" was not strong, I start to see how there is no separate self, I had a laughter when this was discovered.. :)

Hearing excercise
*******************
1) no in hearing there is only sound, what is being heard. Images, names, judgement are coming from the mind or seeing.
2} no one doing hearing can be found, hearing is just happening.
3) none of the mentioned can be found while hearing, where is only what is heard
4) hearer can't be found as well, cause hearing is just happening on its own, the same way as everything else internally and externally- all senses, mind content, bodily experiences, all external objects what we perceive..

This is clear, this discovery could be enjoyed as it is, but there is sometimes identification, clinging to strong emotions, anger and jealousy in particular, sometimes people get hurt because of that..
Is it a way of liberation to allow these things to happen, and just know there is no "me", no "others", everything is fine.. I doubt it..
Or anger should be observed, before it expressess itself, asking who is getting angry, jealous etc?
Sometimes it doesn't work, cause it comes too quick and colors the awareness fully, which makes difficult to observe it from a distance..
Please guide

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[Canfora]

Hi Avuso,

Well done with the hearing exercise.

This is clear, this discovery could be enjoyed as it is, but there is sometimes identification, clinging to strong emotions, anger and jealousy in particular, sometimes people get hurt because of that..
Is it a way of liberation to allow these things to happen, and just know there is no "me", no "others", everything is fine.. I doubt it..
Or anger should be observed, before it expressess itself, asking who is getting angry, jealous etc?
Sometimes it doesn't work, cause it comes too quick and colors the awareness fully, which makes difficult to observe it from a distance..
Please guide

I agree with you when you say "Is it a way of liberation to allow these things to happen, and just know there is no "me", no "others", everything is fine.. I doubt it.. "
Yes. Even with the seeing there is still some work that can be done so that improvement happens in our lives and the life of others. At the same time, you are stepping outside the scope of this inquiry. It seems to me that - like most people (me too sometimes) you may have some issues around control and the way you see things. There are techniques that focus on those issues but they belong to the scope of psychology or psychoanalysis and so on. I don't know what would work best for you as a way to change your habitual way to relate to life challenges. Change is about trying this and that until we get results. But what we are doing here, although it may help, isn't a way to change yourself or to change the way you react to life at the time being. It's about noticing what is here, as it is, all included.

I've read this this morning and maybe it can be helpful to you: https://www.facebook.com/JoanTollifson/ ... 2469874743

I like what she says in this post and it relates somehow with what you're talking about.

Let me know your thoughts around these issues :)

Take care,
C

[Avuso]

Hi Canfora!

Thanks for this enlightening article, I enjoyed reading it, it showed me nice new angles how to see WHAT IS during this day.

But I have some concerns too:
In comments, talking about disturbing emotions, patterns, author states that:
"What has shifted over the years is that I no longer feel ashamed of these
things, and I’m no longer trying to fix them or taking them personally as signs
of spiritual failure."

- well, little bit of theoretizing.. isnt it just an attitude, acceptance which is being cultivated, reached by not believing the stories about clinging,but what is actually still happening. And it can happen also because of partial direct knowledge of "no self" which can put us in a belief that liberation is already achieved? All work is done.. And we are not continuing to look at what is evident, that the process of clinging is still there.. On gross mental level we see that there we can't find anyone who clings, but the process is happening for a reason.. Will it stop completely as fire when not giving it a firewood?


"The suffering was in thinking that “I” was doing
this, that I “should” be able to control it, that “I” was a failure because I
couldn’t. I’m grateful for all the things like this in my life that might look on
the surface like misfortune."

Regarding my question in previous post about strong emotions which are covering the mind too fast for detaching and observing them, similar way of seeing things because of "no self' as above, would not be satisfying. At least because cause suffering is also made to other persons involved.

Why then there is left a work for psychological practices and which are mostly working on the level of ego?

Why liberated being is hurting others or needs to fix issues of ego? :)

It makes me think that by the method we are using here it is not possible to eliminate the subtle identifications and clinging to the phenomenas arising, cause habits and subtle reactions still will happen.. I understand that it is not possible to find separate self who clings with the gross mind we are using (without methods of deep concentration from Buddhist or Hindu yoga traditions and others, which see reality on very subtle level) , so we can still be trapped in this game of clinging, reactions..

There are paths of meditation which are working with eliminating the seeds of disturbances, passion, anger etc and identification with these on at core level.
So they are not appearing in the mindstream anymore and you can really be called liberated,cause body mind is not reacting to these independent phenomenas whatsoever or they completely disappear forever.
Knowing this is creating doubts about the authenticity or deepness of "No self" experience as I experience it right now.
I hope you understand this..

Apart from these thoughts I see thru experience that things are just happening, mind is analysing, putting judgement, labels for that, body is just typing the answer. I see there is no self, but the grasping on subtle level is there..

Take care,
A.


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[Canfora]

Hi Avuso,

Regarding my question in previous post about strong emotions which are covering the mind too fast for detaching and observing them, similar way of seeing things because of "no self' as above, would not be satisfying. At least because cause suffering is also made to other persons involved.

I understand what you are saying but I think you are imagining how you will feel about future situations from your actual point of view. That's a trick mind does: to think our future self will be similar to the present self. When you are a child or a teenager you imagine how you will be when you grow up from the child or teenager point of you because the truth is that you don't have the capacity to know how your future self will be. -- with this I'm not saying that past, present or future selfs are real, it's just that the self illusion may seem very very real.

Why then there is left a work for psychological practices and which are mostly working on the level of ego?

There are people that work on themselves and there are people who don't. That's how some human beings deal with life.

Why liberated being is hurting others or needs to fix issues of ego? :)

Uh? How do you know there are beings that are liberated? Do you know one personally? I don't. What do you mean by being? Isn't being = separate self?

It makes me think that by the method we are using here it is not possible to eliminate the subtle identifications and clinging to the phenomenas arising, cause habits and subtle reactions still will happen.. I understand that it is not possible to find separate self who clings with the gross mind we are using (without methods of deep concentration from Buddhist or Hindu yoga traditions and others, which see reality on very subtle level) , so we can still be trapped in this game of clinging, reactions..

Holy Christ! Did you read this? If you didn't please do: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041
and this too: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1048

There are paths of meditation which are working with eliminating the seeds of disturbances, passion, anger etc and identification with these on at core level.
So they are not appearing in the mindstream anymore and you can really be called liberated,cause body mind is not reacting to these independent phenomenas whatsoever or they completely disappear forever.
Knowing this is creating doubts about the authenticity or deepness of "No self" experience as I experience it right now.
I hope you understand this..

I do! You have huge expectations.

Apart from these thoughts I see thru experience that things are just happening, mind is analysing, putting judgement, labels for that, body is just typing the answer. I see there is no self, but the grasping on subtle level is there..

Are you sure you see there is no self? How do you know there isn't one?

Take care,
C

[Avuso]

Hi Canfora!

Thanks, I read the FAQ, I admit, I missed that chapter, now it's bit more clear what direct pointing is and not, but I guess I had an issue with what is meant by liberation and realisation of no self,if comparing with Buddhism for example, which is kind of trying to deal with the same thing.

I guess it was bit hard to accept the fact that process can be called liberation, if afterwards habitual tendencies and reactions to defilements are still there..

Question:
Are these tendencies, reactions going to dissappear after a while of "living with no self"?
In FAQ there was something mentioned like that to cross the Gate is just a beginning of awakening, what does that mean? What follows?


The description of liberation I mentioned in previous post is just a brief description of what is understood by liberation in other tradition and has nothing to do with my expectations from direct pointing. I don't have expectations here, just want to see, and the rest will follow.

Well, I guess there is no point to compare Direct pointing to other systems anyways. The understanding can be different.. Why not.

As I wrote I see independent mental and bodily phenomenas just happening without any doer, me. Then comes up a thought "there is no self" because of that .. Hmm.. funny..

But how the clinging to likes and dislikes, emotions etc is happening then?

It looks that automatic reactions to triggers, addictions etc. are working in no different way as any other thought, sensation etc., but just happen faster, are more intense and its more hard to unblend from that experience.

Less disturbing and intense emotions, thoughts, sensations can be easily observed, how they arise on their own. I see how they are separate phenomenas just happening, labeled by mind, without me, my, which come also only as labels of mind if there is a thought about it.. so in this way clinging to them doesn't happen..

But with intense emotions, sensations etc there is clinging, and kind of "subconscious" or "subtle" identification as me, mine to these phenomenas and it happens too quick to realize that these are just things happening. Anger or other stuff is already expressed.

So how or Is this clinging happening, if there is the realisation of No self?

Or I'm getting it wrong?

Yes I have met few liberated people personally. What are the qualities of a liberated being as in Buddhism or other traditions is described in scriptures.

Hmm.. Yes it's true, looks like I still believe in me and others, cause if I believe in others I should believe in separation.. separation vanishes only when I enquire and see it as just a thought.

Take care,
A.

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[Canfora]

Hi Avuso!

Are these tendencies, reactions going to dissappear after a while of "living with no self"?

That's not my experience.

In FAQ there was something mentioned like that to cross the Gate is just a beginning of awakening, what does that mean? What follows?

It means that life goes on.

But how the clinging to likes and dislikes, emotions etc is happening then?

It looks that automatic reactions to triggers, addictions etc. are working in no different way as any other thought, sensation etc., but just happen faster, are more intense and its more hard to unblend from that experience.

Less disturbing and intense emotions, thoughts, sensations can be easily observed, how they arise on their own. I see how they are separate phenomenas just happening, labeled by mind, without me, my, which come also only as labels of mind if there is a thought about it.. so in this way clinging to them doesn't happen..

But with intense emotions, sensations etc there is clinging, and kind of "subconscious" or "subtle" identification as me, mine to these phenomenas and it happens too quick to realize that these are just things happening. Anger or other stuff is already expressed.

So how or Is this clinging happening, if there is the realisation of No self?

Or I'm getting it wrong?

You are trying to understand the "how's and why". This is not about the "how's and why", we aren't trying to figure how why things are as they are. The goal is to see if the you that seems to be behind all these questioning and trying to figure out how things work out is real.

Yes I have met few liberated people personally. What are the qualities of a liberated being as in Buddhism or other traditions is described in scriptures.

Really? Amazing!

Hmm.. Yes it's true, looks like I still believe in me and others, cause if I believe in others I should believe in separation.. separation vanishes only when I enquire and see it as just a thought.

So what makes you say you believe in me? What is this me made of in your immediate experience?

Take care,
C

[Avuso]

Dear Canfora!


That's a very good question, what makes me believe in me..
These are just the thinking, ideas, thoughts.. The same what I observed previously as just happening without anyone doing or making them..
Thinking also just happens..
Some ideas like how the liberation should be are making the resistance, doubts to acknowledge that already now there is no self.. But this is just a story based on gathered information as any other story.. Doubts are also just thoughts..

The thing is that no self is seen only when investigation and seeing is being done, sometimes it is kind of easy to slip back to habitual perception of "me" , of others as separate entities, etc.. Forget that separation happens only with the labels we put on what exists as it is.

Does it mean that there is a need for continuous looking in this specific liberating way? Or at least for some time until there is some bigger insight?

Or there is something holding me back to live this experience without effort? I don't know what it is..





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[Canfora]

Dear Avuso,

Thank you for your post!

Does it mean that there is a need for continuous looking in this specific liberating way? Or at least for some time until there is some bigger insight?

Are you waiting for a bigger insight? What do you expect to happen?

Or there is something holding me back to live this experience without effort? I don't know what it is..

You think this is about experiencing no self, it seems. And you are making a effort to have this experience? It seems to me that both the experience of no self and the experience of self only seem to be happening when you think about these issues, no? It's the way you think about experience that seems to shape that experience into a no self experience or a self experience. Can thoughts create a self or a no self? Do they have that power?

What happens if you try to be a self instead od trying to experience no self? Let's say you spend the next half hour doing all you can to be a self. Can you do that? Manifest a self into existance?

Take care,
C

[Avuso]

Hello Canfora!

Thanks for these great pointers!
Im was not specially looking for a bigger insight, if it comes great! When I wrote that, I just thought maybe that's what is missing to see the absence of self 24/7..
Cause if I'm was not looking at things that they are just happening and I forgot about that, life, perception was kind of the same as before we started this process..

But now..
Yes, you are right. I see how Idea of self comes, only when I think about it. Thoughts are "creating" it, but it's a phantom.. Because it's all what it is - just an idea.. Everything is fine with the life, it happens.. As all the other stuff mentally and bodily..

Idea of self comes as any other thought, as well the thoughts of Separation, Liberation and others.
There is no such a thing as the self already, no need to get rid of something which has never been true.. I just saw the ghost of the self!!

I can't be the self intentionally, because it has no reality. There is no such a thought that could make the phantom real, the same way there is no way to turn a rope into a snake..

Take care,
A.



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[Canfora]

Dear Avuso,

Say more.
Without a self what remains?
How would you describe this to someone who has never heard of this?

Take care,
C