Take two!

[gondwana]

There has been a definite opening here. A sense of spaciousness, more relaxation, more happiness.

Firstly, this is most certainly a moment for celebration! Beautiful :)

it doesn't really matter if the drug helped me to See - that could be a good thing.
My only fear is about what will happen if I need to go off the Prozac

If you once believed in Santa Claus.
And then one day you saw that Santa Claus was not real.
Would then the starting or stopping Prozac after this, make ANY difference whatsoever to the knowing of Santa Claus not to be real?

However, when I try (as an experiment) to conjure up a self, for example by saying the word "I" a few times, a particular feeling arises.

The only thing we are concerned with here, is whether you KNOW that that feeling which comes up is nothing more than a thought. Or do you still believe it is a real "me" inside there which comes up?

[Bobf]

Hi,

Things are very hectic today, and I like to have some time to Look before answering. Will respond tomorrow!

Bob

[Bobf]

There has been a definite opening here. A sense of spaciousness, more relaxation, more happiness.

Firstly, this is most certainly a moment for celebration! Beautiful :)

Thank you - I appreciate it!

If you once believed in Santa Claus.
And then one day you saw that Santa Claus was not real.
Would then the starting or stopping Prozac after this, make ANY difference whatsoever to the knowing of Santa Claus not to be real?

No, it wouldn't make any difference. It may be affecting how I feel though (e.g. the spaciousness, relaxation), but I realize that's a different issue.

However, when I try (as an experiment) to conjure up a self, for example by saying the word "I" a few times, a particular feeling arises.

The only thing we are concerned with here, is whether you KNOW that that feeling which comes up is nothing more than a thought. Or do you still believe it is a real "me" inside there which comes up?

This is the tricky issue (the remaining 20%). Sometimes I still "feel" like a centralized self. When I look carefully, all I see are feelings and thoughts. But this sense of selfhood tends to be followed by "doubting thoughts". Thoughts like maybe I didn't really See anything. But these thoughts are a lot less convincing than they were before.

Bob

[gondwana]

No, it wouldn't make any difference. It may be affecting how I feel though (e.g. the spaciousness, relaxation), but I realize that's a different issue.

Well these things are usually reported as being the result of seeing, so that seems unlikely :)

Sometimes I still "feel" like a centralized self.

Is this itself any more than just a thought?
What entity exactly is feeling like a centralised self?

[Bobf]

Sometimes I still "feel" like a centralized self.
Is this itself any more than just a thought?
What entity exactly is feeling like a centralised self?

I did some Looking into this this evening, which was interesting. Will report back tomorrow.

[Bobf]

Sometimes I still "feel" like a centralized self.

Is this itself any more than just a thought?
What entity exactly is feeling like a centralised self?

There is still residual confusion here. On the one hand, there is a sense that a spring inside me has unwound - most, but perhaps not all the way. As I mentioned, this is accompanied by a sense of relaxing into experience - as if there is just experience.

On the other hand, I can still summon up a feeling that seems like a self. In actual experience, there is this feeling and a thought that this feeling is "me". I realize that this makes no sense - a feeling can't be a self. But some confusion about this seems to still remain - less than before though.

I think that what may be happening is a processing of the "opening" that I described a couple of weeks ago.

Bob

[Bobf]

Here are some further thoughts:
1. I see (quite clearly) that my thoughts, perceptions and feelings arise spontaneously.
2. I also see that my actions arise spontaneously.

This calls into question the "feeling" of a centralized self that sometimes arises. If this "self" isn't controlling thoughts, actions, etc., it can't be a self in the traditional sense. It can't be something inside my head that is directing my life.

Bob

[gondwana]

I wonder if, you already answered this yourself, without realising. Just a simple case of over-thinking :)

It is simply required to recognise the answer was right there already:

I can still summon up a feeling that seems like a self. In actual experience, there is this feeling and a thought that this feeling is "me". I realize that this makes no sense - a feeling can't be a self. But some confusion about this seems to still remain - less than before though.

Yes!

“feeling that seems like a self”
+ “thought that this feeling is ‘me’”

The word “like” is the clue here!

Is it possible, that the feeling is actually something else, and the thought that labels it is a lie?

The feeling is undeniably true, for all of us. We can all feel that we are ‘here’. We KNOW it.

The second is exactly what you said. A thought!
Nothing more. And what have we learned about thoughts being true?

Is the thought “this feeling is me” true?
And if it is NOT true, then what does that mean for the first thing, the feeling?

To put it another way:
What remains, after we drop all thought?
What is left?
Is it personal, or impersonal?

Look and report back!

[Bobf]

I'm going to work with this for a little while - specifically your question about "what remains when we drop all thought".

I have a friend visiting this evening, so will probably post late tomorrow or Sunday.

But you are right - I may have answered all my own questions!

Bob

[Bobf]

“

feeling that seems like a self”
+ “thought that this feeling is ‘me’”

The word “like” is the clue here!
Is it possible, that the feeling is actually something else, and the thought that labels it is a lie?

Yes, that's definitely possible.

Is the thought “this feeling is me” true?
And if it is NOT true, then what does that mean for the first thing, the feeling?
To put it another way:
What remains, after we drop all thought?
What is left?
Is it personal, or impersonal?

Remember that I had said that, a few weeks ago, it seemed like a spring inside me had unwound 80% of the way? When I read this part of your post, it felt like the other 20% might be unwinding. When all thought is dropped, what is left is just feeling and sensing - its impersonal.

As I had said, what may be going on here is that the process that started a few weeks ago (it had actually started long before that) is resolving itself automatically. I can still summon up residual feelings that somehow feel to be centralized, but there is less of a concern about that. The "seeking" tendency has decreased dramatically.

Bob

[gondwana]

Remember that I had said that, a few weeks ago, it seemed like a spring inside me had unwound 80% of the way? When I read this part of your post, it felt like the other 20% might be unwinding.

The "seeking" tendency has decreased dramatically.

I remember. That’s great!

Now just keep the focus on it. Keep looking, don’t let it slip back into the shadows.

When all thought is dropped, what is left is just feeling and sensing - its impersonal.

Yes exactly! Impersonal indeed.

Note that, a “feeling” is just sensation + thought label.

Look now at any feeling you have, and verify this for yourself before reading any further.

I can still summon up residual feelings that somehow feel to be centralized, but there is less of a concern about that.

Well, let’s flush it out.

With the above in mind (i.e. feeling = sensation + thought label), what is “feel to be centralised” exactly? Can it actually be found in direct experience?

Is there such a thing as a “feeling which is centralised” in direct experience?

You may have already done the following exercise, but please try it again now just to re-verify:
Sit or lie quietly, eyes closed.
Stay completely still.
After some stillness, observe any sensations occurring in the body.
Do not move while observing them.
Do not rely on thought or memory next, only look at what is present NOW in direct experience.
-->> Do sensations come with any information whatsoever, telling the location from whence they originate? <<—
Is it possible to tell at all where a sensation came from, without moving to acquire additional sense data or relying on prior memory/thought about the body?
Or is it only thought, which labels the location, not the sensation itself?

Now look once again at this “feels to be centralised” experience you described above.
What are the component parts it is made from?
Do the sensation(s) involved actually provide ANY information about “centralised” being the location?

Or is this just another thought, which is part of the residual belief in a “self” still remaining?

Is there any such thing as a “centralised” sensation at all, in direct experience?

Do not extrapolate or analyse, look NOW in the present moment and check as if curiously looking for the first time.

[Bobf]

P
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Remember that I had said that, a few weeks ago, it seemed like a spring inside me had unwound 80% of the way? When I read this part of your post, it felt like the other 20% might be unwinding.
The "seeking" tendency has decreased dramatically.
I remember. That’s great!

Now just keep the focus on it. Keep looking, don’t let it slip back into the shadows.

Yes, I'm concerned that this is happening lately. I want to keep pushing!

You may have already done the following exercise

Yes I have tried it, and its the exercise that I had most trouble with. I just tried it again for awhile...

Or is it only thought, which labels the location, not the sensation itself?

Each sensation appears to be so quickly followed by a thought (that tingling is in my hands) that, at first look, it appears localized. However, when I played around a bit, I found that I could move sensations around. In other words, take a sensation that appears to be in my chest and move it to a different "location". This shows that the location isn't as defined as it seemed. I understand the principle here, but have trouble seeing it in actual experience.

Now look once again at this “feels to be centralised” experience you described above.
What are the component parts it is made from?
Do the sensation(s) involved actually provide ANY information about “centralised” being the location?
Or is this just another thought, which is part of the residual belief in a “self” still remaining?

Again, there was some flexibility. When I summoned up the "centralized" experience that I described, it was seen that its not tightly localized. Not clear if its in my head, my upper chest or even in front of my upper body.

As I said, I do understand intellectually that sensations have no location - that its only conditioned thought that says they do. I can see that somewhat in AE, but not completely clearly.

The bottom line though is that i clearly see that everything is just arising and passing away, including the "centralized" feeling. So it makes no sense that it could be a self.

Bob

[Bobf]

Ignore the top part of my previous message. It got pasted in accidentally...

[gondwana]

As I said, I do understand intellectually that sensations have no location - that its only conditioned thought that says they do. I can see that somewhat in AE, but not completely clearly.

Let us just focus on this for a minute, as there seems to be a lack of clarity here. It is worth flushing that out.

It seems you may be over-complicating the exercise. Expecting a ‘wow’ moment, and looking for that.
When in fact, we are just looking for a very simple realisation. It can be seen in just a single moment’s glance, no effort required. It is obvious.

Simply:
- When you feel a sensation from the body...
- Does that sensation ITSELF contain any location ‘data’ intrinsically within it, describing the location where the sensation originated?
- Or, do you need to rely on prior knowledge of the shape/layout of the body, in order to be aware of the location?
- Is a sensation literally JUST the sensation?

Look now, and check the above.
This should only take you a moment. In one glance it is obvious.

[Bobf]

-

When you feel a sensation from the body...
- Does that sensation ITSELF contain any location ‘data’ intrinsically within it, describing the location where the sensation originated?
- Or, do you need to rely on prior knowledge of the shape/layout of the body, in order to be aware of the location?
- Is a sensation literally JUST the sensation?

The sensation itself conveys no spatial location. There is just very strong conditioned knowledge that a particular sensation comes from a particular body part.