Emptiness is the track on which the centred person moves. - Tsongkhapa.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Iain,

Knowing thought is taking place is real, but of course the content of thought is never the real, or actual, of experience. The content of thought can be seen through as entirely different to experience. Thought taking place is known, but all content within thought, any suggestion that thought can know itself, or know if the object thought about is real or not, is entirely imagined within thought (graffiti scribbled on wall analogy).

To me there are two things I want you to look at with regards your query.

Is there a dividing line between Knowing (Experience Itself) and known (soundthoughtsmelltastecoloursensation - Experience Itself)?

Is not the content of thought just further thought?
“I am a person” is the thought; the ensuing thoughts of what that means is the content. What meaning is given to thoughts are only just thoughts about thoughts. If thought, in and of itself contained experience, then we would in great trouble when the thought/label ‘elephant’ appeared! If thought contained experience then when the word ‘sweet’ appeared, it would taste sweet! The actual experience of thought isn't any different just because the content of the thought is different.

All thoughts point to fantasy UNLESS it is pointing to AE, for example sensation “brrbrr” = thought "cold".

Remember this exercise?

For every thought that comes up, and to determine whether it is referring to actual experience or whether it is pure fantasy, replace the thought with “blahblahblah” and check whether what it was referring to remains.
Let me know how you go with doing this.


With love, Kay

[IainB]

Dear Kay,

Thank you for the extra questions.

Is there a dividing line between Knowing (Experience Itself) and known (soundthoughtsmelltastecoloursensation - Experience Itself)?

Knowing / Experience is all there is. Thought splits experience up into colour/sensation/knowing of thought etc and experience is known in this way but experience is singular, so no dividing lines in experience, only those in thought.

For every thought that comes up, and to determine whether it is referring to actual experience or whether it is pure fantasy, replace the thought with “blahblahblah” and check whether what it was referring to remains.
Let me know how you go with doing this.

Yes, this is a great way to highlight when immersion in thought story has taken place. Blahblahblah has the same amount of truth as the story about what happened at work years ago, the imagined characteristics of an associate and their internal agenda, Batman or Santa. Of course if thought is pointing towards colour, sound, sensation etc in the now and labelling, this will remain (thought referencing actual experience).

The actual experience of thought isn't any different just because the content of the thought is different.

Would it be correct to say that while thought acts to label, and creates stories, in looking from actual experience thought is known, just as colour, sensation and sound are known, so the ae of thought does not differ?

Thank you.

Love, Iain

[forgetmenot]

Hey Iain,

The actual experience of thought isn't any different just because the content of the thought is different.

Would it be correct to say that while thought acts to label, and creates stories, in looking from actual experience thought is known, just as colour, sensation and sound are known, so the ae of thought does not differ?

Yes, beautiful.....thought is known! The actual experience of thought isn't any different just because the content of the thought is different.

With love, Kay

[forgetmenot]

Hello Iain,

Okay...let's see where we are at. Can you answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

With love, Kay

[IainB]

Dear Kay,

Sorry for the delay in replying. I've been a little ill over the last week and struggled a bit physically and mentally. I have looked each day, and also continued to go back through the posts. This continues the process of raising relatively straightforward questions (which you have already answered really), and there is more clarity. It is as though I can see what you were pointing towards in those posts, whereas before it was more a process of guessing.

I'm going to be completely honest - I don't feel ready to answer the questions you've set me below. I feel confused, frustrated and disappointed in my ability to look, which sits in sharp contrast with your skill in guiding and generosity in time given to making myself and others look. I may be being naive here, and in the clutches of expectation, but I don't feel I've reached the place / non place that these questions suggest.

There has been a shift in perception of self. There has been an experience of clarity in seeing the vacuous, empty nature of thought, including thoughts of I. There has been an experience of the immediacy of the now, and that now is all there is, with only thought suggesting otherwise. These experiences, guided by you, were real, clear, and a genuine shift in awareness. From this there was an extrapolation that self, other, time and control, as previously imagined, are in thought only. However, this awareness feels part experiential, and part intellectual, as though further looking is required.

Progress has been made, although that doesn't feel so apparent sitting here this morning. Perhaps I should just give it a few days, continue gently looking, and answer then?

Thank you for your patience!

Love, Iain

[forgetmenot]

Hey Iain,

I think you will be nicely surprised when you answer the questions. You have had a shift and you have a good understanding of how the concept of the separate self comes together. If you are waiting for some thoughts to stop appearing or for some other change, other than the change in perception...then that is an expectation. And an expectation is simply a thought.

Perhaps there is a fear that once you answer these questions that you will be all alone and have no contact with me and then what? We will remain in contact...that is not a problem and if any questions arise you an always ask either via FB or via the forums PM system.

I'm going to be completely honest - I don't feel ready to answer the questions you've set me below. I feel confused, frustrated and disappointed in my ability to look, which sits in sharp contrast with your skill in guiding and generosity in time given to making myself and others look. I may be being naive here, and in the clutches of expectation, but I don't feel I've reached the place / non place that these questions suggest.

That is a thought Iain...there is no place to reach and what is it exactly that wants to reach a place or non-place. There is simply this instant and that is all there is and if in this instant confusion, disappointment and frustration are appearing..then that is what is appearing in this instant. There is not even a letting go of the idea of a 'separate self', that in itself is a concept. Everything ALREADY IS whether you want to think so or not.

There has been a shift in perception of self. There has been an experience of clarity in seeing the vacuous, empty nature of thought, including thoughts of I. There has been an experience of the immediacy of the now, and that now is all there is, with only thought suggesting otherwise. These experiences, guided by you, were real, clear, and a genuine shift in awareness. From this there was an extrapolation that self, other, time and control, as previously imagined, are in thought only. However, this awareness feels part experiential, and part intellectual, as though further looking is required.

There is an expectation that the clarity should be 24/7 now. Well that is certainly wanting a magic wand! Toing and froing between clarity and confusion are the norm. It takes more than a few weeks to unravel many years of 'conditioning' and to see through all beliefs that hold together the idea of a separate self. It took me over a year for the yo-yoing to finally stop, but in the mean time I just kept on looking. Just because I was toing and froing did not mean I had not seen through the separate self...I had, but there was still other beliefs to see through.

The point of you answering the questions is so that you see where you are at, I can already see it, but you must see it as well. You can hold onto the idea that you need more time...but that in itself is just an illusion as well.

The ball is in your court. You decide what you want to do.

With love, Kay

[IainB]

Dear Kay,

Sorry about the delay. I was slightly ill, but accompanying this were thoughts suggesting looking was quite painful, and aversion to continuing. This has all lifted and there is some clarity again.

If you are waiting for some thoughts to stop appearing or for some other change, other than the change in perception...then that is an expectation. And an expectation is simply a thought.

I think there has to be some clear seeing that the self as previously conceived, was never real; that the subject / object split is artificial. There may have been glimpses, but as you say, it is a change in perception.

It takes more than a few weeks to unravel many years of 'conditioning' and to see through all beliefs that hold together the idea of a separate self. It took me over a year for the yo-yoing to finally stop, but in the mean time I just kept on looking.

This is inspiring, I do intend to keep on looking.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?

Thought weaves a compelling story about a separate self. Thought stokes such thoughts with yet more thoughts about self/me/I (and other) endlessly, and it is thoroughly convincing. Following your guiding finally allowed me to glimpse that thought isn't real, in the concrete unquestioned way I had held it to be. I was able to see through thought and witness its amorphous, artificial nature, at least briefly, and the knowing of this experience lingers. That knowing must point to no self/me/I. No self/me/I can be found in looking Now.

Was there ever?

It would seem not. If self is only in thought, then it was only ever in thought. I suppose there can never have been some real separate person standing outside of the moment in the way previously thought.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

The separate self is a belief that apparently sits with the rest of 'reality' circling around it, and happening 'to' it. Once this belief is present, it perpetuates itself effortlessly and can be hard to see through.

If I go back as early as I can in life, there are thoughts of Iain as a distinct person, who believed life was happening to him, who was entirely seperate from others, who had a body and his thoughts. There must have been early influences to firm up, reward and celebrate this separate character. There was no encouragement to see through it.

At its simplest, unquestioned beliefs that familiar sensations in the chest, with attached thought labels of self, seem to form the basis of the self. From this thoughts of and about both Mine and Other appear again and again and are believed to be real and valid.

Self remains there in thought, but there is not the clear self 'out there' as a separate real thing in the world. I hope to answer this better when I have seen through the illusion more fully.

3) How does it feel to see this?

I've been asked to report on the feelings associated with seeing a number of times. There have been some positive feelings at times of noticing the vacuous nature of thought, or glimpsing that all is now. In general though things feel very much as before.

Again, I hope to report more on this when I see through the illusion more fully. I know that positive feelings are often reported when seeing the lack of separate self clearly, and if this is experienced, I will share.

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

There have certainly been some changes. When I started I had lived with the unchallenged assumption of separate self for many years. Sensations in the body labeled familiar were simple proof of it. Now there has been an opportunity to look at the vacuous nature of thought, and the knowing that only the now is real.

When I started it was easy to become frustrated with the process of looking. I stopped for several months and one point then returned. In general there is much less frustration now, even acceptance that whether I see clearly or not, I shall simply continue with the process of looking.

I have had glimpses that there is no 'experiencer', separate from experience, but this remains largely intellectual / fabricated. I'm very keen to experience and feel this fully, if this is possible for me.

Please report from the past few days.

The experience of seeing the vacuous nature of thought, and the knowing that all is now, took place some weeks ago.

I am able to run through the exercise of looking for the self in thought, the sensations of the body, and in the shape outline of the body. This leaves me with a sense that there is only awareness, and no self. Again, if there is a change of perception that persists, I will share.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Repetitive persistent playful looking at how thought is only ever About the object it claims to know finally allowed me to see thought for the first time ever. I had never seen thought before, despite a lifetime immersed in it! Thought was visible as a misty cloak of substancelessness hanging in front of the colour of that moment.

A few days later, further looking made it clear that the only thing real is Now. The vacuous nature of thought proved a helpful contrast with the vibrant immediacy of now. It was clear, how could anything other than now be real? Now is beautiful, solid, radiant, all else is commentary in thought. Again, this seeing was an entirely new experience.

Linked with this seeing, was getting a feel for what was being guided towards about linear time being within thought only, and something that could not be found in looking. It felt as though looking could reconfigure my beliefs about time, agency and self / other. I would like to look and experience these last points further so they are clear.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

The Now is what is real. The colours, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations and knowing thought is taking place now, as distinct from the veil of thoughts clouding now. Given only now is real, there can be no deciding what will appear in the now. It's already appearing! This relegates concepts of intention, free will and control to thought, where they play out in stories. The brilliance of now shines out and highlights how agency is part of the complex thought drama only.

b) What makes things happen? How does it work?

I'm not clear on this. I can make guesses but I'm yet to see.

c) What are you responsible for?

Thought continues to suggest that there is 'my' experience, and 'I' make choices and influence outcomes. There is intellectual knowing that thought cannot be controlled / predicted, and therefore it is only thought that follows actions and suggests there is a separate responsible character. I'm keen to do more work on looking through all this.

d) Give examples from experience.

I very much hope to when I have something of substance to report on.

6) Anything to add?

Please can I answer these questions again when I have seen more fully? I'm keen to continue the process of looking and being guided. There have been glimpses and I am determined to somehow move these forward to that change in perception. There is definitely more clarity when looking back at my earlier posts, and anywhere else in LU.

Love, Iain

[forgetmenot]

Hello Iain,

If you are waiting for some thoughts to stop appearing or for some other change, other than the change in perception...then that is an expectation. And an expectation is simply a thought.

I think there has to be some clear seeing that the self as previously conceived, was never real; that the subject / object split is artificial. There may have been glimpses, but as you say, it is a change in perception.

So what needs to happen for you to say YES…there is no separate self?

Up until a thought appears and is ‘hooked into’ is there a notion of a ‘me’? The SEEMING re-identification actually happens in the current moment when going down the rabbit hole with thoughts/stories. These thoughts/thoughts stories then SEEM to give rise to increased body reactions and increased thoughts about those body reactions which the “I” thought then claims as belonging to to a ‘me’! It is this looping that builds momentum and the story of a ‘me’ is once again SEEMINGLY re-identified with.

I want you to become aware of this. When you are focussed on doing something, or even just sitting watching TV, or when you are contemplating something, is there a notion that there is a separate self, or does a thought appear which then points to idea of there being a separate self?

Please report from the past few days.

The experience of seeing the vacuous nature of thought, and the knowing that all is now, took place some weeks ago.

I am able to run through the exercise of looking for the self in thought, the sensations of the body, and in the shape outline of the body. This leaves me with a sense that there is only awareness, and no self. Again, if there is a change of perception that persists, I will share.

Going back to previous answers you have given in your thread, there has been many shifts in perception. As I have already expressed you have an expectation that those perceptions should be crystal clear 24/7….good luck with that.

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/nat ... 95#p240733
https://www.liberationunleashed.com/nat ... 95#p240840

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?

Thought weaves a compelling story about a separate self. Thought stokes such thoughts with yet more thoughts about self/me/I (and other) endlessly, and it is thoroughly convincing.

For what exactly is thought “very convincing”? That is itself a thought!

b) What makes things happen? How does it work?

I'm not clear on this. I can make guesses but I'm yet to see.

We have looked at where thoughts come and go, done the palm flipping exercise, the drink exercise and what you are aware of exercise, which are all exercises in seeing if there was anyone or anything making ‘things’ happen! I suggest you revisit those.

Here is the link to that part of our conversation where is you reported very clearly the you found no controller - that everything was just happening.

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/nat ... 35#p235502

c) What are you responsible for?
Thought continues to suggest that there is 'my' experience, and 'I' make choices and influence outcomes. There is intellectual knowing that thought cannot be controlled / predicted, and therefore it is only thought that follows actions and suggests there is a separate responsible character. I'm keen to do more work on looking through all this.

d) Give examples from experience.
I very much hope to when I have something of substance to report on.

You have also reported that you have seen clearly that there cannot possibly be anyone responsible for anything and you have given examples. So you can see my ‘confusion’ with your answers.

6) Anything to add?

Please can I answer these questions again when I have seen more fully

Of course you can answer these questions again later. It is just that you have looked many times and seen that there is no separate self, but you keep expecting thoughts to change and they simply don’t. There is no one controlling thought and there is no one thinking thought…so how and why would thoughts change? I have no more pointers left. You can reread your thread again, and I can get you another guide who might be able to pose other questions and point in a different way to how I do, but there is no pointers and exercises that I have not given.

With love, Kay

[forgetmenot]

Hi Iain,

I thought that the guiding in the following link, might be of some assistance to you. It is based on the looking that I showed you to do. The entire thread from the beginning is not necessary to read. Just read from where the link starts to the end...there is only a few pages.

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/nat ... 09#p241600

Let me know if it was of any help.

With love, Kay

[IainB]

Dear Kay,

So what needs to happen for you to say YES…there is no separate self?

You have shown me exactly how to look and see with certainty. The last link you sent again prompts the simplicity of this. I rewrote my findings:

At times it feels that there is an Iain clear as day in thought, somehow linked to sensations in Iain's body. Then I can look in thought and what I find is thought suggesting the sound of the name Iain. However, the thought of a sound, even one thought may suggest is familiar, is only a thought. It's a thought About someone called Iain, who has a name with a particular sound. There is no Iain in that thought suggesting sound.

If thought imagines the letters I A I N then again, these are letters of a name. They are a pointer to an apparent person. They are about. There is not Iain in thought. Just as if the thought Elephant was real, there would suddenly be an elephant there to deal with, in the same way thoughts of Iain are only thoughts about Iain, otherwise this thing apparently called Iain would suddenly be there.

Using the letters on the forehead technique makes it clear that thoughts point towards. They are never the object, even if thought suggests it is. Thoughts are only ever about. Thoughts know nothing, The content of all thought is fantasy.

It's clearer for me that sensation is simply the actual experience of a sensation, and there is no I or other entity hiding in sensation. Likewise, mental image or outline is a thought, for example a thought about what the outline of Iain's body is like, and there is no additional separate entity or I there in that thought of image or outline.

Of course, the guidance following seeing the absence of I, is to simply sit with the sensation.

I want you to become aware of this. When you are focused on doing something, or even just sitting watching TV, or when you are contemplating something, is there a notion that there is a separate self, or does a thought appear which then points to idea of there being a separate self?

The only thing suggesting I is concrete / real / convincing are thoughts about an I, with yet more thoughts commenting “concrete / real / convincing” or other nonsense. As you guide, thoughts Seem to suggest re-identification, they Seem to link further with sensation and so Seem to lead to a cycle of further re-identification. Surely the best way is to just look through all this as thought imagination nonsense. Looking / sensing the colours and sensations of the now with actual awareness, or thinking 'blahblahblah,' shows what is real, now.

We have looked at where thoughts come and go, done the palm flipping exercise, the drink exercise and what you are aware of exercise, which are all exercises in seeing if there was anyone or anything making ‘things’ happen! I suggest you revisit those.

Thank you, I will. Is the drink exercise that which shows the imagined cup in thought to be only thoughts about a cup (cannot be held or hold a drink)? Is the what you are aware of exercise the one where you look right, then left, then forward with eyes closed and realise there is no control over what is seen? I shall repeat.

There is no one controlling thought and there is no one thinking thought…so how and why would thoughts change?

As always, beautifully put. I wonder if there is an expectation that thoughts will change. Thoughts are mindless, unpredictable, sometimes commenting on experience but more often delving deep into fantasy. Thoughts won't change. It may be an expectation around chasing particular feelings or sensations related to seeing.

Love, Iain

[forgetmenot]

Hey Iain,

You write your answers very clearly and yet there is something ‘missing’…it is like you are answering questions on an exam paper. I would like you to revisit the following questions, but answer what's true for you right now, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answers.

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

So what needs to happen for you to say YES…there is no separate self?

You have shown me exactly how to look and see with certainty. The last link you sent again prompts the simplicity of this. I rewrote my findings:

You didn’t answer my question, Iain. What needs to happen for you to say YES…there is 100% no separate self?

It's clearer for me that sensation is simply the actual experience of a sensation, and there is no I or other entity hiding in sensation. Likewise, mental image or outline is a thought, for example a thought about what the outline of Iain's body is like, and there is no additional separate entity or I there in that thought of image or outline.

1) Imagine holding sensation in the right hand and thought in the left hand.
Does thought, on the one hand, and sensation, on the other, know about each other?
Is there a link between the two?

2) Imagine sensation and thought are resting on either side of a pair of scales. When sensation is looked at it gets heavier. When thought is looked at it gets heavier.
Is it possible to look at both thought and sensation at the same time to balance the scales?

Thank you, I will. Is the drink exercise that which shows the imagined cup in thought to be only thoughts about a cup (cannot be held or hold a drink)? Is the what you are aware of exercise the one where you look right, then left, then forward with eyes closed and realise there is no control over what is seen? I shall repeat.

This is the drink exercise I was referring to.

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - A chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Thoughts won't change. It may be an expectation around chasing particular feelings or sensations related to seeing.

It may be or it is?

With love, Kay

[IainB]

Dear Kay,

It is like you are answering questions on an exam paper.

I'm really pleased that you pick up on this. You've mentioned this before. This feels important. It feels as though there is a lack of authenticity in my looking or other barriers, so good to look at expectations again.

How will life change?

Life will be reconfigured as old beliefs and assumptions drop away. Certain beliefs that played out in thought about myself, others, control, time, the division of experience and experiencer will still appear in thought, but it will be possible to 'see through' these concepts as not being 'real' as they are believed/assumed to be now. I will see with certainty that life is now, in the moment, with an absence of separate self or other.

How will you change?

The thoughts that suggest Iain as a separate 'real' character, linked to sensations or inside a body will be known to be empty thoughts only. It's not so much that I will change, and a different version of Iain emerge. Instead life will be seen and known, and it will be seen that there was never a separate self in reality, only life / experience. So the change is seeing there was no Me/You to change.

What will be different?

Currently there is an obsession with who I am, what I should or should not do, endless cyclical thoughts of interactions labelled 'positive' / 'negative', 'nice' / 'painful' with other characters who have agency, a past and a future, as I do. The immersion in these thoughts is like an ongoing, 'real' story thought labels as compelling. At best it is boring, at worst torturous. Thoughts will still appear, but knowing it all to be a story will remove the stickiness of unquestioned immersion in fantasy / story.

What is missing?

Nothing is missing. It's is something that is believed to be here, that is in fact not here at all. The character Iain, who is separate from other characters in life.

What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

To be guided to experiencing experience as it is. To see the truth of what is real in such a way that it triggers a shift allowing yet further seeing and knowing to take place. To no longer be motivated by thoughts of something missing or lacking in my life that might be resolved through a particular spiritual path or practice, gaining a piece of knowledge or having a particular experience. To not have to play that game of seeker called Iain apparently 'moving' through life, exercising some control, finding a something 'he' is apparently looking for.

You didn’t answer my question, Iain. What needs to happen for you to say YES…there is 100% no separate self?

The knowing / feeling of self missing, or never having been there, but more than just a vague suggestion or sensation that requires an exercise or set of exercises to return to glimpsing. An actual knowing that there is no self that allows thought and thought concepts of self / other, agency, time to be looked back on and be seen to be false, rather than being assumed to be real.

Thank you for the guidance on flip/flopping, yo yowing.

I will get the rest of your questions answered later today.

Love, Iain

[IainB]

Dear Kay,

1) Imagine holding sensation in the right hand and thought in the left hand.
Does thought, on the one hand, and sensation, on the other, know about each other?
Is there a link between the two?

Thought and sensation do not know each other. There is actual experience of thought, and actual experience of sensation, but it is not possible to experience something called 'thought-sensation'. Thought labels sensation, and then points towards sensation further as it suggests there is an affirming link between thought and sensation. However, thought only comments about emotions or feelings, points towards yet further thoughts about emotions or feelings, and suggests a link with sensation that is in thought only.

2) Imagine sensation and thought are resting on either side of a pair of scales. When sensation is looked at it gets heavier. When thought is looked at it gets heavier. Is it possible to look at both thought and sensation at the same time to balance the scales?

It is unusual to imagine thought and sensation in this way. It feels strange to attribute weight to thought, when it is so wispy. It is easier to imagine sensation as holding weight, as sensation can sometimes feel quite heavy in the body. But, it is not possible to look at both at the same time. They are different things doing their own things.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

Thoughts flowed about supposed characteristics of each drink, almost like looking at a menu in which the drinks were described. It was like watching a documentary about the characteristics of each drink where a narrator ran through a list. Thought suggested 'words' that thought further suggested were hovering around the drinks. These characteristics / preferences were from thought. They were labelled 'familiar' by thought. There was no 'I' choosing.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

No mental function or faculty appeared. If anything there was more the absence of a chooser, a space of change as the preferences ended and anticipation that something was going to happen, a sense of the unknown and that it could go 'either way'.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

The was colour labelled as mug / glass / tea / juice / hand moving and thought 'counting' only. There is nothing to be found between the 'counting' and the colour labelled drink in hand, and taste labelled tea or juice.

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Feelings cannot choose. There is action then thought labels 'my drink' and 'good choice' or 'bad choice' but this is only in thought. If thought labels sensation at that time and suggests a me choosing, then this is thought only.

Thoughts won't change. It may be an expectation around chasing particular feelings or sensations related to seeing.

It may be or it is?

I'm not sure, there are expectations of 'change' and 'different' that may be getting in the way. As you are very clear, there can be a long period of flip flopping and expecting change or difference will hamper seeing.

Love, Iain

[forgetmenot]

Hello Iain,

How will life change?

Life will be reconfigured as old beliefs and assumptions drop away. Certain beliefs that played out in thought about myself, others, control, time, the division of experience and experiencer will still appear in thought, but it will be possible to 'see through' these concepts as not being 'real' as they are believed/assumed to be now. I will see with certainty that life is now, in the moment, with an absence of separate self or other

How will life be reconfigured exactly? There has NEVER been a separate self who is living life. Life is simply lifing! Where can you possibly be, if not in the NOW? Is there a past or future? However life is appearing is how it is appearing NOW. It isn’t going to change in any way.

How exactly will colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation and thought change? And if they are not the NOW…then what are they?

How will you change?

The thoughts that suggest Iain as a separate 'real' character, linked to sensations or inside a body will be known to be empty thoughts only. It's not so much that I will change, and a different version of Iain emerge. Instead life will be seen and known, and it will be seen that there was never a separate self in reality, only life / experience. So the change is seeing there was no Me/You to change.

Aaah I see. You are wanting thoughts to change. You are expecting thoughts to stop saying that you need to change, become better, know better, stop being angry, unkind, confused or whatever, and to stop thinking of yourself as a self – to stop this and stop that. Sorry…but thoughts don’t stop telling you that you need to improve or become a better you, or you need to change yourself. Thoughts simply appear. Where is the author of thoughts? You already know that thoughts are empty…so how should thoughts look exactly? We have looked at thought from all angles. If you want to continue to see thoughts as the truth speaker,' there is nothing much I can do about that. It is up to you, when thought appear telling story to do the BLAHBLAHBLAH exercise or break what thought is saying into AE so you see what the truth actually is. No one else can do that for you.

What will be different?

Currently there is an obsession with who I am, what I should or should not do, endless cyclical thoughts of interactions labelled 'positive' / 'negative', 'nice' / 'painful' with other characters who have agency, a past and a future, as I do. The immersion in these thoughts is like an ongoing, 'real' story thought labels as compelling. At best it is boring, at worst torturous. Thoughts will still appear, but knowing it all to be a story will remove the stickiness of unquestioned immersion in fantasy / story.

And I sounds to me like you haven't actually LOOKED to see what it is exactly that can be or is "obsessed", And you expect all of this to drop away once seeing through the separate self. I have already told you that seeing through the separate self is a beginning and not an ending. You are wanting “years of conditioning” to fall away overnight. Yep..keep dreaming, because that isn’t going to happen. It takes time for beliefs etc to start falling away and there is no time frame on that. What is it exactly that is affected by what thought says? If LOOKING to see that there is no separate self wanting any of this and there is a continual listening to thought….then you will keep spinning your wheels. No amount of pointing is going to stop you from spinning your wheels, that is entirely up to you.

What is missing?

Nothing is missing. It's is something that is believed to be here, that is in fact not here at all. The character Iain, who is separate from other characters in life.

And what is the pay off for telling yourself that story over and over? There must be a pay off. If you LOOK and see and continually see when LOOKING that there is no separate self and yet you still want to spin this story….there must be something of value in this story.

What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

To be guided to experiencing experience as it is. To see the truth of what is real in such a way that it triggers a shift allowing yet further seeing and knowing to take place. To no longer be motivated by thoughts of something missing or lacking in my life that might be resolved through a particular spiritual path or practice, gaining a piece of knowledge or having a particular experience. To not have to play that game of seeker called Iain apparently 'moving' through life, exercising some control, finding a something 'he' is apparently looking for.

Sorry…this exploration is simply about seeing through the separate self. The rest then is up to you. I am not a never ending pointer or therapist. You have to make your own way sooner or later. You already experience experience as it is in every moment. You are aware of actual experience…what more is there?

You didn’t answer my question, Iain. What needs to happen for you to say YES…there is 100% no separate self?

The knowing / feeling of self missing, or never having been there, but more than just a vague suggestion or sensation that requires an exercise or set of exercises to return to glimpsing. An actual knowing that there is no self that allows thought and thought concepts of self / other, agency, time to be looked back on and be seen to be false, rather than being assumed to be real.

LOL…we all felt like that Iain. The seeing in the beginning, the aha moment is clear but then it gets very muddied. It is up to you to keep LOOKING to make sure that when LOOKING it is seen that all the above stories are seen as simply that – stories. It is the continual SEEING when LOOKING that no separate self can be found is what deepens the clarity. I have told you all of this several times.

As I said, I can’t help you any further. It is simply your expectations and desires for more than what you have that gives you the idea that you are stuck. I think you had better go read several threads in the archived section just to see what the reality of seeing through the separate self is like when seen. But then also understand all those years of SEEMING beliefs that you are a separate self aren’t going to fall away overnight.

I cannot take you any further than this. So perhaps at a later date, after a few months, you might like to start another thread in the forum and ask for another guide, but this is where, for me, I end this particular thread.

I will leave you with the following and I wish you the very best.

“I still believe that I am a “me”.

1. The thought “I still believe that I am a “me” arises. So the thought is actual experience of thought. And other thoughts that arise with that thought about that thought are the content of that thought.

2. The thought “I still believe that I am a “me” has a feeling associated with it...a feeling labelled “me”, “sense of self” etc . If there is no actual sensation, then the feeling is just another thought ABOUT a “me” and the content of that label is not real.

- If there is an actual sensation, then the sensation is actual experience of sensation not the actual experience of a “me”. Sensation is actual experience BUT is not associated with the thought (that is a lie). Labels are actual experience but the content of labels are not real.

- So the thought “I still believe that I am a “me” ” is actual experience but the content of the thought is not ‘real’

- The feeling labelled as “me/sense of self” is actual experience but the content is not real.

- Any actual (body) sensation is actual experience but not as the content of what thought labels the sensation as or what thought says about the sensation. Sensations are simply AE of sensation.

3. All previous experience of “I still believe that I am a “me” are arising in the moment but as images and thoughts, and those images and thoughts are actual experience but the content is not real.

4. The thought “a belief is experienced through emotions, sensations, memories etc is content of a thought that is defining what “this is a belief” means.


With love, Kay

[forgetmenot]

Hello Ian,

I am posting your PM here, as well as your responses to the final questions. They are wonderful responses and so very clear. I am going to get another guide to have a look to make sure we have covered everything and that my pointing has been clear, which in turn makes it clear for you to see. They may or may not have further questions for you, I will let you know....but I am so thrilled with your responses...and I am thrilled for you!

I'm keen to see what's next, or on offer here, with your help. Of course, whatever is showing up now is what is happening / 'on offer'. Thought suggests 'keep looking at the self that seems to show up' and 'try messaging Kay' and 'remember there are no separate real things called LU or guides or Iain, just experience' etc etc.
Thought may suggest others and object and times but that is just an appearance known as it passes, what ‘I’ am, as it passes.

Once I get the green light from the other guide and there are no more questions, you will be added to the LU groups on Facebook. This thread is for investigating and seeing through the idea of the separate self. We can start another thread to investigate further in the Further Investigation (FI) forum or continue on PM, that is up to you.

I don’t understand what you are saying here, could you clarify it for me please.

This is just my attempt to express that if others or objects or the passing of time is suggested by thought, that is what is showing up as experience, and what IS (or what I am) is experience. As you say below [colour exercise], only thought suggests dividing lines and then spouts ongoing stories about things / others.

Lovely, yes! :) You will made a wonderful guide if you ever feel the pull to do so.

I'll have a go at the questions:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

There was and is, only ever experience. If thought suggests a separate self, then that is what is showing up as experience, but it is thought only, not a separate real entity. Thought suggests a history filled with occurrences of Iain, but that is simply a thought known now. There is no past out with imagination.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Thought suggests a separate character Iain, then further suggests a myriad of inherent qualities or attributes ad nauseam. It labels the body and objects and memories and intentions as being part and parcel of Iain and repeats this endlessly. This took hold very young and was relentless. There is a ferocious identification with these thoughts and all in seen through this distorted prism.

3) How does it feel to see this?

There’s been different feelings over time, from excitement / joy (I can see through the thoughts of Iain and don’t have to be a slave to them anymore!) to fear / vulnerability (I don’t know what’s going to show up next or a feeling of a loss of the self to be replaced by a clear knowing of experience).

4) What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

When I started I thought [paradoxically] that seeing no self would happen to a separate person Iain, and become another attribute or achievement. Now I know there is only experience, now. If thoughts of a character called Iain show up as experience that’s fine, but they are not pointing towards anything real. Seeking thoughts still show up (get a partner / get a better job / plan a holiday / find an enlightened teacher to follow) but these are known as thoughts playing out, and need not be taken literally.

Please report from the past few days.

They key moments of change took place a few weeks ago. Whenever there is a slipping back into duality, I look, and the vibrant immediacy of experience shows clearly there is nothing out with experience, now. There is an ability to look at experience now, whereas before there was looking from within a mesh of thoughts.

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Seeing ‘through’ thoughts for the first time was crucial. Then there was a realisation that there is only now. Then there was understanding that when Iain shows up in thought, that thought contains all of the idea of Iain and all that is considered past is appearing in thought now.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

Thought suggests there is a separate self who can influence what happens in an imagined future. However there is only the experience of now and whatever is happening is already happening. The separate self and agency seem to go hand in hand, but experience is what is happening. Thought commentary follows from what is happening, and offers thoughts of a projected self with agency acting in the future. It is just what is showing up in experience now though.

b) What makes things happen? How does it work?

I don’t have a clue. What possible reason can there be for the crazy play of now with all the bizarre things that show up. There is no separate plan or controller or force, only the experience of now to surrender to.

c) What are you responsible for?

Thought would suggest lots. However, there is no separate part to what is unfolding that stands apart from that unfolding and is either supplicant to it, or instigates it, so no responsible Iain, just the unfolding of now.

d) Give examples from experience.

Thought might suggest “I wish my lodger would clean up after himself and stop using the washing machine so much” but in parallel with the experience of this thought is a knowing that there is no separate Bradley, no clean or unclean, no past that informs a frequency of washing machine use and no separate Iain to whom that experience is taking place. In fact, if that is what is showing up, then that story is what is making up the now, and that experience is what is. I am the noises that thought suggests are the activity and existence of other. I might as well remonstrate with myself for what is going on in the kitchen, as that it is what is showing up as experience and there is nothing out with experience.

Thanks Kay,

Love, Iain