Looking

[s-p-a-c-e]

Thanks for pointing that out. Sometimes it happens that I see identification as a ¨failure¨, maybe this is because there is the expectation that because I have seen through the idea of a separate entity the identification should be gone.

Yeah. Like seeing what a rainbow is, and being shocked at another rainbow. :D

Where is the illusion?

The illusion is an idea, that consists of thoughts, that are believed to be true.
The illusion is where thoughts arise. I don´t know from where thoughts arise, they just do.

So, there is an idea of how it is.
At this point, the idea is only an idea, no illusion.

Then, there is believing the idea to be true, a true depiction of how it is.
So, is illusion a thing, like an idea, or is it a particular act?

Explore for yourself.

See if you can illude yourself. :) - take an idea, any idea, and attempt to believe it is true.
See how far you get.

Share any discoveries.

Best wishes,
John

[John888]

Where is the illusion?

The illusion is an idea, that consists of thoughts, that are believed to be true.
The illusion is where thoughts arise. I don´t know from where thoughts arise, they just do.

So, there is an idea of how it is.
At this point, the idea is only an idea, no illusion.

Then, there is believing the idea to be true, a true depiction of how it is.
So, is illusion a thing, like an idea, or is it a particular act?

Explore for yourself.

See if you can illude yourself. :) - take an idea, any idea, and attempt to believe it is true.
See how far you get.

Share any discoveries.

I looked at an blue cup, and I said to myself: ¨This cup is red¨.
I repeated this sentence with conviction but I didn´t believe the idea/thought.
So there was the idea/thought that this cup is red, but there was no believe that this idea/thought was true.

A thought is only a thought, an idea is only an idea, no illusion. Only when the idea is believed to be true, then it becomes an illusion. So illusion is the act of believing that the idea is true.

So the idea can and will still come up, but there is no believe that the idea is true.
The illusion is no longer there :)

Kind regards,
John

[s-p-a-c-e]

So the idea can and will still come up, but there is no believe that the idea is true.
The illusion is no longer there :)

OK, so what about the idea that the first idea is not true?
Is that believed to be true?
Maybe that is illusion too?

:D

[John888]

So the idea can and will still come up, but there is no believe that the idea is true.
The illusion is no longer there :)

OK, so what about the idea that the first idea is not true?
Is that believed to be true?
Maybe that is illusion too?

:D

Haha Nice.
So what if we don´t believe anything? What if we only look without the judgement of true or false?
What if there is just experience?
There is no ¨I¨, a separate self found in direct experience. Experiences seem to happen by itself without someone or something controlling or doing anything. So, the question is: can you believe what you experience?
There are a lot of illusions for example ¨optical illusions¨, were you experience something different then the actual truth.
But what is truth? It is what you believe to be the truth. Something is true until you see otherwise.
So I have had the believe/truth that there was a separate self who controlled his experiences. When I was really looking and saw that everything happens without any control and that the believe in a separate self ¨I¨, is just a mental construct which is created after the experiences because of ¨I¨ thoughts, then the believe in a separate self was no longer believed.
It isn´t replaced by a believe of there being no separate self, it is known that there is no separate self.

Kind regards,
John

[s-p-a-c-e]

So what if we don´t believe anything? What if we only look without the judgement of true or false?
What if there is just experience?

And 'true' and 'false' are ideas that are believed true. OMG. It's just eaten its own tail. :)

There is no ¨I¨, a separate self found in direct experience. Experiences seem to happen by itself without someone or something controlling or doing anything. So, the question is: can you believe what you experience?

You say no 'I' could be found, does that equate to it being true?

Best wishes,
John

[John888]

There is no ¨I¨, a separate self found in direct experience. Experiences seem to happen by itself without someone or something controlling or doing anything. So, the question is: can you believe what you experience?

You say no 'I' could be found, does that equate to it being true?

Well, there is an ¨I¨ found as a mental construct an idea. This ¨I¨ is not as it was believed to be, like a separate self.
So there is no self as an separate entity, but there is a self as a mental construct an idea.
The self is a process rather then an entity. So there is a self but not how ¨I¨ believed it to be.
We can call this process self or life or whatever you would like to call it.

Kind regards,
John

[s-p-a-c-e]

Well, there is an ¨I¨ found as a mental construct an idea. This ¨I¨ is not as it was believed to be, like a separate self.

Excellent.

So there is no self as an separate entity, but there is a self as a mental construct an idea.

Forgive me for being picky :) but I don't want you to go away with any un-necessary distortions, or dogma.

(1) "...there is a self as a mental construct an idea" < yes, you have specifically seen this to be the case.
(2) "...So there is no self as an separate entity" < this is a broad generic statement of fact that hasn't been seen.

As the old saying goes, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. :)

(1) is seeable.
(2) is believable.

Do we need (2) when we got (1)?

In your own words, what would you say is the difference between (1) and (2)?

The self is a process rather then an entity. So there is a self but not how ¨I¨ believed it to be.
We can call this process self or life or whatever you would like to call it.

Cool.

Thanks John.

[John888]

Thanks for your reply!
I have exams this week and next week, so it is possible that I respond a little slower then usual.

So there is no self as an separate entity, but there is a self as a mental construct an idea.

Forgive me for being picky :) but I don't want you to go away with any un-necessary distortions, or dogma.

(1) "...there is a self as a mental construct an idea" < yes, you have specifically seen this to be the case.
(2) "...So there is no self as an separate entity" < this is a broad generic statement of fact that hasn't been seen.

As the old saying goes, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. :)

(1) is seeable.
(2) is believable.

Do we need (2) when we got (1)?

In your own words, what would you say is the difference between (1) and (2)?

In your own words, what would you say is the difference between (1) and (2)?

Well, something can only be seen as that something exists. So, when something isn´t there, it can´t be seen.
The self as a mental construct an idea is seen. That there is no self as an separate entity is not seen, and thus can only be believed.

Do we need (2) when we got (1)?

No, when the self is seen as a mental construct an idea, then nothing has to be believed.
What the self is, is then clearly seen and so the believe of what you believed the self to be is gone.

Kind regards,
John

[s-p-a-c-e]

That's great John, thank you.

I'm curious :) in your 2nd post, you mention "The last few days I was reading the posts here on the forum and ask myself the same questions that were ask in the posts...The questions were asked during reading and also during daily life. I become more mindfull during the day and there was clearer seeing."

Do you recall the question/s and the occasion of seeing?

Wishing you every success in the exams!!!
John

[John888]

Wishing you every success in the exams!!!

Thank you :)

I'm curious :) in your 2nd post, you mention "The last few days I was reading the posts here on the forum and ask myself the same questions that were ask in the posts...The questions were asked during reading and also during daily life. I become more mindfull during the day and there was clearer seeing."

Do you recall the question/s and the occasion of seeing?

From what I recall it were the following questions:
- Who am ¨I¨? Who is ¨John¨?
- Who is walking? Is there someone who does the walking? Is there someone who controls it?
- Who is seeing, hearing, feeling sensations? Is there anyone needed to see or hear? Or is there just hearing and seeing? Is there control in what is seen or heard? Look at something and try to not see it, does it work? Try to not hear anything, does it work? So, is there any control?
- Who is thinking? Is there someone who has control over the thinking? Do you choose your thoughts? If so, why don´t you choose only the pleasant thoughts? Can you predict your next thought? Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?
- Who is making decisions? Is there a ¨you¨ who is deciding or are decisions just happening?

When asking these questions there was the realization that there really is no control and that everything just happens without someone doing it. It are the ¨I¨ thoughts who tell the story of there being an ¨I¨ who is the experiencer of the experience. During that day it became clear and during the days that followed it was seen more often. The realization happened that day when walking in nature.

Kind regards,
John

[s-p-a-c-e]

Ok, thank you. :)

It's all good.

Now, we're going to pause for two weeks till the exams are done.

Give it everything, and I look forward to catching up soon!

With best wishes,
John

[John888]

Hey John,

How are you? The exams are finished, so I can respond more frequent again.

During the exams I kept looking although it was less intense.
Looking occurred spontaneously without purposely intending to look.

In most occasions there is less identification and when there is identification it is quickly seen to be just a story.
There were a few occasions were the identification was strong and the story dragged on for a few minutes.
In these instanced when asked the questions: who is this happening too? Were is the ¨I¨?
The identification lessened and there was more space, more distance, more being.
Then the decision, choice and action was done with a clearer, more open mind.

The last few days there was an urge to investigate what the texts say about what awakening means.
Sort of comparing and seeing if ¨I¨ am really awakened.
Then there was the realization/thought, who and where is the ¨I¨ who can be awakened.
It are just thought constructs of what an awakened being should be like or how ¨he/she¨ would behave.
It is very simple: Have ¨you¨ seen and verified for yourself that the ¨I¨ is a thought construct, an idea and not a separate entity?
Yes! Do you sometimes go along with the story and momentarily forget that the ¨I¨ is a mental construct? Yes.
So are ¨you¨ awakened? That depends on the definition, but does it really matter? What is there to gain by knowing that ¨you¨ are? Nothing really, well, it can potentially become another type of identity: ¨The awakened one¨. Also just a thought, an idea.

Kind regards,
John

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi John,

How are you? The exams are finished, so I can respond more frequent again.

Great. Hope they went well!

During the exams I kept looking although it was less intense.
Looking occurred spontaneously without purposely intending to look.

In most occasions there is less identification and when there is identification it is quickly seen to be just a story.
There were a few occasions were the identification was strong and the story dragged on for a few minutes.
In these instanced when asked the questions: who is this happening too? Were is the ¨I¨?
The identification lessened and there was more space, more distance, more being.
Then the decision, choice and action was done with a clearer, more open mind.

Ok, good to have an inquire reflex. :)

The last few days there was an urge to investigate what the texts say about what awakening means.
Sort of comparing and seeing if ¨I¨ am really awakened.
Then there was the realization/thought, who and where is the ¨I¨ who can be awakened.
It are just thought constructs of what an awakened being should be like or how ¨he/she¨ would behave.
It is very simple: Have ¨you¨ seen and verified for yourself that the ¨I¨ is a thought construct, an idea and not a separate entity?
Yes! Do you sometimes go along with the story and momentarily forget that the ¨I¨ is a mental construct? Yes.
So are ¨you¨ awakened? That depends on the definition, but does it really matter? What is there to gain by knowing that ¨you¨ are? Nothing really, well, it can potentially become another type of identity: ¨The awakened one¨. Also just a thought, an idea.

Have look at all the various identities you may wear at different times, some subtle, some not so.
Identities acquired through place, family e.g. a cornishman :), brother, friend; or through achievement e.g. a graduate, musician etc.

Just survey these identities within yourself and see how they show up.

What do you find?

john

[John888]

Hey John,

Thanks for your reply! Good to hear that you are great.

Have look at all the various identities you may wear at different times, some subtle, some not so.
Identities acquired through place, family e.g. a cornishman :), brother, friend; or through achievement e.g. a graduate, musician etc.

Just survey these identities within yourself and see how they show up.

What do you find?

I will respond to this in the next reply.



I noticed a process going on. Clear seeing and happiness -> Fear, restlessness and doubt -> Clear seeing and happiness -> etc.

When there is clear seeing and a state of happiness, fearful thoughts can come up but are clearly seen to be just thoughts and not belonging to an ¨I¨. Experience is seen clearly and the experience of life is joyful.

When there are periods of fear, restlessness and doubt, fearful thoughts and doubt comes up but are not seen clearly, so there is identification with the experience. After inquiry, there is seeing clearly again and happiness comes along.

Also when tired, there is less looking and more identification. It takes more time to remember to look and do the inquiry.

Kind regards,
John

[s-p-a-c-e]

I noticed a process going on. Clear seeing and happiness -> Fear, restlessness and doubt -> Clear seeing and happiness -> etc.

When there is clear seeing and a state of happiness, fearful thoughts can come up but are clearly seen to be just thoughts and not belonging to an ¨I¨. Experience is seen clearly and the experience of life is joyful.

When there are periods of fear, restlessness and doubt, fearful thoughts and doubt comes up but are not seen clearly, so there is identification with the experience. After inquiry, there is seeing clearly again and happiness comes along.

Also when tired, there is less looking and more identification. It takes more time to remember to look and do the inquiry.

Mostly its habit, our first port of call, we do the thing we've always done, that's always worked after a fashion. :)
Partly, because there's more to inquire into.

We are quite sneaky :) and keep a bit of ourselves in reserve, just in case it all goes belly-up. :D

john