Path or No Path

[pwsamadhi]

Where's this I you speak of? Is it something other than a thought itself? You have written that I is only a thought yet you refer to it as a thing that can stop thought. Where is this thing? It can't be both ways.
Yes I is a thought. Don't know what this thing is, but it uses control of the breath to stops thought.

For the experiment, it should only be done during full waking state, not during meditation. Even one or two thoughts demonstrate that there's no I controlling thought.
Agreed, the mind moves on it's own. However with strong intention and a clear mind, the thoughts can be temporarily quelled via the breath.

Struggling to come up with dog related items means having thoughts other than about dogs. Do you see this?
There weren't actually other thoughts not of the subject dogs. They were just mental gaps (no thoughts), as the brain was processing to come up with new dog related associations.

e.g. dogs are loyal, dogs are furry, some dogs are big, some dogs are small, ... (gap) ..., dogs are cute, dogs are playful, dalmatians are dogs, ... (gap) ..., dogs smell, dogs are tough to take care of, dogs make people happy

[Artst]

Hi, Peter,

Sorry for the delay in writing back.

Yes I is a thought.

Nice.

Don't know what this thing is, but it uses control of the breath to stops thought.

Is it because thought comes and goes there must be something in control of that? Please look and see if you can actually find something that exists that is doing the controlling and let me know what you discover.

However with strong intention and a clear mind, the thoughts can be temporarily quelled via the breath.

What is controlling all this?

You're doing great.

Sending love,

Robyn

[pwsamadhi]

Going to reason out loud for a bit.

"If I... is a thought...
and I, feels or thinks it is in control...
but we already established that I is a thought...
Then it is thought, the mind, the ego that feels or thinks it is in control...
But we also established that thoughts come and go...
And if thoughts come and go... it is really beyond our control"

Then this very act of seeking, dwelling, contemplating... is it the thought/mind trying to understand itself?

Thoughts come and go based on accumulation of prior and ongoing causes and conditions. During meditation, sometimes thoughts appear, other times thoughts just drop off. So every present moment, every action, occurs due to past and current causes/conditions. Including meditation, pursuing a path, or not pursuing a path.

Who or what is in control? Who is the seeker? Who is asking? The question and questioner itself is a thought putting me back to square one.

It feels like I'm spinning my wheels. Like I'm stuck in some loop. And the only way out is silence or pure awareness.

This is like a koan. Am I over pondering this? lol

[Artst]

Hi, Peter,

If I... is a thought...
if thoughts come and go.

We are not conducting an inquiry of theory or logic, Peter. No "If, then..."
What's so in Direct Experience?

It feels like I'm spinning my wheels. Like I'm stuck in some loop. And the only way out is silence or pure awareness.

Thoughts, all thoughts. The way out is to look, not focus on contents of thoughts.

When you look for the I, what there? Can you describe what you find?

Sending love,

Robyn

[pwsamadhi]

Aside from the "I" thought, nothing, silence. Just space, emptiness, and all the contents within this. Including this person, this body.

Still uncertain of what's in control.

[Artst]

HI, Peter,

Aside from the "I" thought, nothing, silence.

Yes.

Just space, emptiness, and all the contents within this. Including this person, this body.

So, there's no body? Perhaps not ultimately but for our purposes, consider experience.

Still uncertain of what's in control.

Yeah, let's look. Here's an experiment for you. It will take some very focused looking. You are to sit quietly and slowly lift and lower your right arm repeatedly -say, around 25 times. As you do this, look to see what is controlling the movement of the arm.

Let me know what you find.

Sending love,

Robyn

[pwsamadhi]

So, there's no body? Perhaps not ultimately but for our purposes, consider experience.

There's a physical body.

Yeah, let's look. Here's an experiment for you. It will take some very focused looking. You are to sit quietly and slowly lift and lower your right arm repeatedly -say, around 25 times. As you do this, look to see what is controlling the movement of the arm.

I am controlling arm. Without any thoughts. Just action.

[Artst]

HI, Peter,

That was fast!

I am controlling arm.

Where do you find this I?

Sending love,

Robyn

[pwsamadhi]

Where do you find this I?

I cannot find it. I only have the idea of an "I". There's still some sense of self, knowing to control the arm to lift up and also to go down.

[Artst]

Dear Peter,

What do you mean, "sense?" Is it through sight, sound, smell, thought, body sensation or emotion?

What do you mean "self?" Self is I, correct? We say, I, me, myself...

Love,

Robyn

[pwsamadhi]

Yes, "self" is still "I".

I cannot see this "self" or "I"
I cannot hear this "self" or "I"
I cannot smell/taste this "self" or "I"
The thought of "self" is just a thought

There's only the seeing of the arm go up and down. And the body sensation of movement going up and down. There is though, the emotion of confusion and curiosity, wondering what's in control?

Some mysterious phenomenon commands it to go up and down.

Yeah, let's look. Here's an experiment for you. It will take some very focused looking. You are to sit quietly and slowly lift and lower your right arm repeatedly -say, around 25 times. As you do this, look to see what is controlling the movement of the arm.

To be honest, don't know. I'd like to say "me" or "I", but based on what we already established above, it's not the case.

[Artst]

Hi, Peter,

The thought of "self" is just a thought

;-)

There's only the seeing of the arm go up and down. And the body sensation of movement going up and down.

Well done!

There is though, the emotion of confusion and curiosity, wondering what's in control?

Ok. Curiosity and confusion are made up of thoughts, are they not? Are there emotions and body sensations too? Wondering -- again thoughts. In Japan, there are gargoyles in front of the temples. They represent Confusion and Paradox and are said to be the guardians of the truth. They are the last strongholds of illusion.

Some mysterious phenomenon commands it to go up and down.

Is it a thing or a the contents of thought? Please locate and describe this mysterious phenomenon if you can find it.

I'd like to say "me" or "I", but based on what we already established above, it's not the case.

Right - no 'I' equals no doer. Keep looking and trust what you discover, not what thoughts argue.

You're doing great!

Sending love,
Robyn

[pwsamadhi]

Ok. Curiosity and confusion are made up of thoughts, are they not? Are there emotions and body sensations too? Wondering -- again thoughts.

Yes, I can see now that confusion and curiosity are also made up of thoughts and emotions. There's no body sensations associated with these two states of mind.

In Japan, there are gargoyles in front of the temples. They represent Confusion and Paradox and are said to be the guardians of the truth. They are the last strongholds of illusion.

Cooooooool.... I got to look that up.

Is it a thing or a the contents of thought? Please locate and describe this mysterious phenomenon if you can find it.

I cannot find it, it is also just a thought, in the form of imagination.

Right - no 'I' equals no doer. Keep looking and trust what you discover, not what thoughts argue.

Thank you so much for taking the time. Deepest gratitude.

Any recommendations where to go from here... ha, jk not in control. Just flow with it, just be it. Any books or practices you recommend to become more mature in this understanding?

Nisargadatta Maharaj always says "you mistake yourself to be the doer".

[Artst]

Hi, Peter,

Here is something for you. I don't know if you are already familiar with it.

Bahiya Sutra

In the seen, there is only the seen,
in the heard, there is only the heard,
in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;
this, Bahiya, is how you should train yourself.
Since, Bahiya, there is for you
in the seen, only the seen,
in the heard, only the heard,
in the sensed, only the sensed,
in the cognized, only the cognized,
and you see that there is no thing here,
you will therefore see that
indeed there is no thing there.
As you see that there is no thing there,
you will see that
you are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that,
nor in any place
betwixt the two.
This alone is the end of suffering.

Peter, can you say with a big fat yes that there is no I?

If so, there are some final questions for you to answer that will allow us to make sure you're clear. Then you'll be sent links to LU Aftercare, which is a private group fro those who have 'Gated' at Liberation Unleashed and one or two other links to groups.

Sending love,

Robyn

[pwsamadhi]

Hi Robyn,

Peter, can you say with a big fat yes that there is no I?

YES, THERE IS NO "i"

Yes I'm familiar with that beautiful sutra. I've forgotten about it. Thanks for presenting it to me once again.

Okay, let's proceed with the final questions.

Thanks