In need of direct pointing-out instruction

[Aphorism8]

Thank you. I will try that exercise.

[Aphorism8]

Hi,

I still have work to do - working through the labels exercise a few more times - but I didn't want to go too long without posting.

I think you were right when you said if I'm not sure about the illusion, then there are places I haven't looked at, and I think one of those places may be the seeming subjectivity.

[Canfora]

Hello,

You don't have to work to see something.
Have a look - use the eyes, use the senses.
Do you see a self?
If you look and don't see a self, is subjectivity more than an illusion?

Take care,
C

[Aphorism8]

OK, here's my attempt to explain what feels still "stuck." Clearly, there's nothing I can point to and say THAT is "me" or "I."

I think one issue is that "self" is so vaguely defined; so even though I haven't yet found anything I can label as "me," it's feels hard to be certain one has definitively failed to find something, if that something hasn't been clearly defined? Does that make any sense?

If you were to ask me if unicorns exist, I can say "absolutely not," in part because I know exactly what is being claimed.

[Canfora]

If you have doubts keep going.
Would you say you are stuck in expectations of what will happen when you see the illusion?
Do you have any fears around what may happen when you see the illusion?


You are clinging to a belief because you believe it may shift from a belief to a certainty? That's part of the illusion. You are believing the content of thoughts.
If you are a separate self this self must be present here and now.
If you are a separate self, this self must be something separate from life. It has to have proprieties that can be proved to exist when you use the senses.
If you are a separate self, this self can't be a thought. It can't be in the past. And it can't be in the future.

So stop thinking and look around like if you never have seen what is here now. Look outside, look "inside". Other than thoughts about a real self, do you see any evidence that a self is real?

[Aphorism8]

That’s very well said. Yes, I am stuck in some expectations. Expectations of some sort of direct knowing, a non-subject/object mode of direct “knowing” of awareness.

[Canfora]

I'm not sure if I understand what you are saying. Does that mean you aren't aware of being aware?
You haven't found a separate self. Isn't this experience of not finding a self a direct knowing? What are you expecting to happen? What is missing in your opinion?

[Aphorism8]

I'm aware of being aware, but I'm not directly aware of being awareness. You might say it's more spiritual baggage. In philosophies like Advaita, seeing through the illusion of the self could be said to be one side of a coin. I realize what I am not (a separate self) AND "directly" "realize" what I am (awareness, primordial awareness, whatever you want to call it) - that's the "other side of the coin" that is "missing."

Lots of air quotes there because I am not making the aforementioned claims, but they're so ingrained in me that they affect my expectations, I think.

It appears that everyone involved in LU steers clear of anything to do with what I am, focusing instead more narrowly on seeing through what I am not.

I hope that clarifies what may be one of the sticking points for me.

So bringing it back to the questions you have posed to me. I have not found anything objective/perceptible I can say is me, but (and maybe this is the most fundamental expression of the possible sticking point) - not finding anything seems to have made zero difference.

Which makes me uncertain as to whether the problem is:

1. I haven't really seen through the illusion.
2. I've been wrong to think seeing through it would make any difference in my life.

[Canfora]

Are you looking to find answers or are you trusting the thoughts that pop up about this stuff? If you think you will find the right answers by thinking, you will keep seeking. You already know all the theories around these subjects don't you? And you are trying to make them work for you. You don't need any of them to do see what I'm pointing to. They are in the way. It's a fact that there is no separate self. To realize this in a experiential level you have to look to the realm of facts - instead of relying in a bunch of second hand ideas, theories, etc. You have to look to what is here as it is. You can do this :)

So..... have a look. See what is here as it is. Describe what you are aware of. Here are some questions that may help:

What do you see?
What are you hearing?
What are you touching?
What are you tasting?
What are you smelling?

Can you see a you?
Can you hear a you?
Can you touch a you?
Can you taste a you?
Can you smell a you?

Take care,
C

[Canfora]

In short, stop thinking about this and waiting for results and look. See what is here. Notice what is missing.

[Aphorism8]

Copy that. Will do.

[Canfora]

Let me know how it goes.

[Aphorism8]

Are you looking to find answers or are you trusting the thoughts that pop up about this stuff? If you think you will find the right answers by thinking, you will keep seeking. You already know all the theories around these subjects don't you? And you are trying to make them work for you. You don't need any of them to do see what I'm pointing to. They are in the way. It's a fact that there is no separate self. To realize this in a experiential level you have to look to the realm of facts - instead of relying in a bunch of second hand ideas, theories, etc. You have to look to what is here as it is. You can do this :)

So..... have a look. See what is here as it is. Describe what you are aware of. Here are some questions that may help:

What do you see?
What are you hearing?
What are you touching?
What are you tasting?
What are you smelling?

Can you see a you?
Can you hear a you?
Can you touch a you?
Can you taste a you?
Can you smell a you?

Take care,
C

I cannot see, hear, touch, taste, or smell anything that can be called "me."

[Canfora]

Does this "not seeing" made you realize something? Does it have any impact on everyday life?

[Aphorism8]

As fat as I can tell at this point, no, it has not made any difference.