Dzogchen

[Beyond]

indeed we can use "me","we", "his", university or any label for communication...
the empty being aware of all this , going into that empty (w)hole and realising there is but that...

[Monkfield]

Great, so can you see clearly that in your actual experience of real life there is no such thing as a "me"?

And if so ...

How can a non-existent "me" be given up?

How can anything be bound to a non-existent "me"?

How can a non-existent "me" be liberated?

How can anything be liberated from a non-existent "me"?

And perhaps more importantly ...

What do these questions really mean to you now?

[Beyond]

there's nothing to be liberated.
only the dive into that empty being aware...
the questions means nothing indeed, not relevant indeed....
being that...

[Monkfield]

Another part of the separate self illusion is the idea that "it" makes choices and that "it" is in control of the body.

Let's take a look at your actual experience of apparent choice and control to see if this is the case ...

Hold your hand out in front of you, palm up.

Now turn your hand over so that it's now palm down.

Turn it back to palm up again.

Turn it to palm down again.

Now let it turn back to palm up again and as it happens watch your actual experience like a hawk.

Do this a few times and look carefully into every corner of your actual experience.

Is there anybody choosing the moment that your hand turns?

Is there anybody turning the hand?

Is there a chooser and/or a controller anywhere to be found in your actual experience?

If you have even the slightest hint of a doubt about this one please tell me about it, don't answer from prior knowledge or understanding or what you think the right answer might be ... if there is any doubt we can go digging to expose its roots.

[Beyond]

Nope it Comes out of nowhere , it pops up so to speak ...

[Monkfield]

If I were to summarise our dialogue so far it would go something like this:

• There is experience of seeing but there is no experience of a seer.

• There is experience of hearing but there is no experience of a hearer.

• There is experience of feeling but there is no experience of a feeler.

• There is experience of thinking but there is no experience of a thinker.

• There are thoughts about choosing but there is no experience of a chooser.

• There are thoughts about controlling but there is no experience of a controller.

Would you say that you understand all of the above OR would you say that you have seen all of the above?

[Beyond]

i understand and indeed can FEEL/see this too...
more and more that feeling of empty just being is there....
there's no "i" controller at all and it feels good at the same time ...

[Monkfield]

Let's take a look at this "empty being aware" that you have mentioned a couple of times, just to see if there are any subtle remnants of identification still going on there.

We could say that there is constant awareness, like an empty space in which "awaring" is happening. All that arises arises in awareness. It's a silent space aware of movement, i.e. action, sensation, feeling, or thought.

A few questions for you:

Awareness ... what is it?

Does awareness need a me to be aware?

How about a cat?

Is awareness doing anything?

Is awareness you?

[Beyond]

Awareness is not me of course...
Awareness is that constant stream of BEing as it is...
A cat is a label, a concept just as the me...
Awareness is not doing anything in the kabel time ...

[Beyond]

awareness is impersonal knowingness in the background...it IS that it is ...
it is empty meaning no conceptualising possible by our "mind/conciousness", it is beyond concept...

[Monkfield]

Hi Beyond,

Happy Easter weekend (if that's something that has any meaning for you - if not ... Happy weekend!!)

How do you feel at this point in our time together?

Is there any difference between how you saw "the separate self" at the beginning of our dialogue, and how you see "the separate self" now?

Kind wishes,

John.

[Beyond]

Happy Raster too of WE...
Yep changed...there's nooooo seperate self of course...

[Monkfield]

Ok, great, you seem to be clear! ;)

I think you are ready for the final questions ...

Please answer all six of the following questions in turn with as much detail as possible:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was
there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen?
How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[Beyond]

1. noooo seperate self...never was/be or will be...
2. it's a mind construct, started with the IDENTIFICATION proces of the mind, it's a strategy of that same mind...
3. it feels good and different, it's a working idea, a verb to live ...
4. your story of santa claus: the make believe story you believe in as child, the mind identifiing as a child in this made up world construct (of the mind)...
5. there's no decision/intention/free will/choice or control to be made, things happen. it'll comes from deep in the unconcious mind itself...
there's no responsibility to be argued about...
it is a potentiality at work working it's way from eternity it was Always there in it's stillpoint being...
6. no(t) (yet)...

[Monkfield]

Many thanks for your answers Beyond ... please can you write a bit more in answer to the individual questions in question 5 ...

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen?
How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

When it comes to decision, intention, free will, choice and control:

5.1) What makes things happen?

5.2) How does it work?

5.3) What are you responsible for?

5.4) Please give some real examples from your own experience.