To be or not to be

[Katiebrown54]

Tim in answer to your questions regarding thought types:

The majority of thought are thoughts of conditioning mostly related to emotions and judgements 75./. The remainder (random) tend to be some factual thoughts...it is raining, sensations - I’m cold, hungry and or statements I think I’ll go for a drive , (25./.) etc

[gondwana]

The majority of thought are thoughts of conditioning mostly related to emotions and judgements 75./. The remainder (random) tend to be some factual thoughts...it is raining, sensations - I’m cold, hungry and or statements I think I’ll go for a drive , (25./.) etc

Which out of these items on the list are self-referential?
i.e. talking about the self

[Katiebrown54]

I started to answer “The majority are self referential except for statements of fact,” but these too are filtered and labelled.


..All thoughts are self referential.

[gondwana]

I started to answer “The majority are self referential except for statements of fact,” but these too are filtered and labelled.

..All thoughts are self referential.

Haha..very good.

Now LOOK: where is this self that is referenced by the thoughts?

Again, do not rely on memory or prior looking. Look right now in the present for this self which is referenced.

[Katiebrown54]

Yes I was looking at this same question before receiving your response.

It’s just more thought!! Oh boy...

[gondwana]

Yes I was looking at this same question before receiving your response.

It’s just more thought!! Oh boy...

Good, keep going!

Look at it from every angle.

Where is this self RIGHT NOW?
Does it exist?
Has it EVER existed in the past?

[Katiebrown54]

Right now self is not present because it doesn’t exist nor has it ever.

[gondwana]

Yes! Beautiful and simple :)

How does it feel to have no story?
How does it feel to have no name?

[Katiebrown54]

FREEING...

A little ... ‘now what?’

Grief...? For the ‘loss’ of the non existent me (work that out!)
but also ‘where to from here?’

[gondwana]

Amazing :)

Grief...? For the ‘loss’ of the non existent me (work that out!)

This is natural and will subside. Consider, that there is currently grieving for something which never existed in the first place!

Then LOOK: where is the one who is actually grieving?
Is there a self feeling grief?
Is this just a thought too?
Perhaps a sensation of release in the body plus a thought labelling it as grief?

but also ‘where to from here?’

For now, no more difficult questions.

Just be, and enjoy this space :)

The answers will come. For now, it is important just to relax, enjoy. And if you feel inclined do continue to look at your own reactions and the reactions of others; look for the self in it each time.

Relax into this for some time.

During that, at any point you wish, you may write here and share the experience. Feel free to rant as needed! Share anything observed or felt.

[gondwana]

Hi Katie, how are things going?
Any updates to share?

[Katiebrown54]

Hi Tim ...great to hear from you!

Really missed our conversations.

However the space has forced some quiet reflection which was necessary after our last few dialogues.

There was this sense of feeling flat lined afterwards particularly after the long and tedious years of various forms of inquiry.

Initially, There was a fear to admit that indeed clear seeing had occurred and on many earlier occasions before our conversations began - but to admit this also meant the confirmation that this realisation was definitely an anti climax.

With time however silence is deepening every day. There is no way to return to the belief of a separate self although some recent responses have not exactly demonstrated this conviction.
Remaining in the silence/space/openness becomes easier each day and recognising the truth...yet sometimes there is the appearance of forgetfulness.

The need to reference or seek out utube teachers has lessened significantly although those teachers who have been listened to recently seem to hit much deeper now. It all seems to be coming together more.

It has also emphasised how much knowing is present but also how much the unknown is also evident.

The desire to socialise has been significantly impacted over the years because of this search but particularly now ...it feels as if there is nothing to say to anyone currently. This points to the need to be in touch with more like minded beings - can you point to where or how this may be possible please?

There hasn’t been the opportunity to genuinely thank you for your time and support. It could be so easy to underestimate the impact of your work but you truly were a life line during some really tough moments during our conversations. It feels like a goodbye to a good friend ...so thank you so much .- you were very much appreciated in every moment.

If you think that more refinement, fine tuning etc would be beneficial, pls tell me.

[gondwana]

Great to speak to you again too! :)

There was this sense of feeling flat lined afterwards particularly after the long and tedious years of various forms of inquiry.

Initially, There was a fear to admit that indeed clear seeing had occurred and on many earlier occasions before our conversations began - but to admit this also meant the confirmation that this realisation was definitely an anti climax.

Perhaps the seeking had become a form of identification, comfort or companionship in and of itself?
One can spend so long working towards a goal, then the final destination seems disappointing when reached.
This is because 99% of the life you have IS actually the journey - the goal itself lasts for but a fleeting moment.
This is why, being present in EVERY moment, making it all about the journey not the goal, is SO important.

When you look back, what do you think now, of the supposed former "self" who was seeking all this time?
And does the current "wishing" that the realisation is other than it IS, share any similarities with that?
Is this "wishing" appreciating the silence that is here NOW, or creating yet another new goal?
Which is more present?

There is no way to return to the belief of a separate self although some recent responses have not exactly demonstrated this conviction.
Remaining in the silence/space/openness becomes easier each day and recognising the truth...yet sometimes there is the appearance of forgetfulness.

Amazing! Forgetfulness is ok. When you "forget", there is still awareness to be found in the experiencing of thought itself.
Simply notice, and look for the self again each time this happens.

You cannot "unsee" it, so you cannot fall back.

The need to reference or seek out utube teachers has lessened significantly although those teachers who have been listened to recently seem to hit much deeper now. It all seems to be coming together more.

For me personally, this was a big removal of residual doubt.
After "knowing", there is simply a hidden depth of truth that pops out now. It cannot come from their actual words as it was not present before.
You may pick them up again should you wish, but as you have already seen, there may be less desire for it.

It has also emphasised how much knowing is present but also how much the unknown is also evident.

Embrace the unknown. It is filled with beautiful, infinite possibility :)

The desire to socialise has been significantly impacted over the years because of this search but particularly now ...it feels as if there is nothing to say to anyone currently. This points to the need to be in touch with more like minded beings - can you point to where or how this may be possible please?

Emphatically yes! Firstly we have aftercare groups on Facebook for meeting others who have recently gone through the Gate, also additional forums on LU where further questions can be discussed or looked at. An invite to all of these will be sent once we complete this thread.

There hasn’t been the opportunity to genuinely thank you for your time and support. It could be so easy to underestimate the impact of your work but you truly were a life line during some really tough moments during our conversations. It feels like a goodbye to a good friend ...so thank you so much .- you were very much appreciated in every moment.

That is beautiful, exceptionally kind, and humbling. It is a pleasure to help someone when the desire to see truth is so genuine and strong.

I will post the final questions below, if you are ready:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[Katiebrown54]

Hi Tim,

Before answering your questions...I will accept your invitation to rant this last time.

Yes I was mindful of the fact that my seeking as a spiritual inquierer was developing an identity of its own! So much so, this concern was troublesome for some time and with some deepening there has been a readiness to drop the 'teacher' role as a yoga instructor and remain in a place of 'non doing' (no teaching) until there is confidence to resume this position with more humility.

The seeking definitely had developed as a companion and the feeling is still there - but it originates from more from a place of calm rather than fear or the need to find protection. (At least for now).

Your point about the importance of being present in every moment, was processed in a very different way after reading your email In the early hours of the morning.
Of course, we have all heard this expression before and to an extent there has always been an awareness of this importance. However, reading your suggestion in the context of this 'spiritual' journey some how jumped off the page.

The fact that this road, as for many of us, can be long and painful and to reach an anti climax at the end of the road can a very sour topping! Your point nevertheless, highlighted how easy it is to dismiss the journey along the way.

It is the pain, confusion, sleepless nights, external judgements etc that has brought richness to what was initially seen as a 'flat line' discovery. In fact, this is the 'enlightenment ' seeing that the journey of enlightenment includes both aspects...before and after... It is all one...one seemingly as many parts.

Looking back at the supposed former 'self' there is some sadness...almost pity...how did this seeing take so long...as was said Tim...don't underestimate your input...wow...your generosity has turned ignorance on its head! Well... at least for this moment 😏
And yes, there are similarities between the seeker wanting more and more and the seeker discovering that the ending or script required a rewrite! There was still dissatisfaction.
Its exhausting examining the striving, anguish, frustration to achieve, peddling the wheel of samsara, remaining asleep for so long a life.

And no, 'wishing' has disintegrated ...it was actually all the suffering. Over it.



The answer to your last questions are on their way!

Thank you Tim.

[gondwana]

Wow...this is beautiful

It is perfectly ok for it to take some time to settle in. Remember this is not the end, only the beginning of a new, awake, chapter.

The purpose of THE GATE forum is to enable seeing there is no self. Clearly, that has now happened.

After the final questions, all further looking and discussion will be more than welcomed in the after-gate forums, FB groups, or we can continue looking at this together through any medium that works. You are not alone, there are many like-minded others.

Your point about the importance of being present in every moment, was processed in a very different way
...
reading your suggestion in the context of this 'spiritual' journey some how jumped off the page.

Then you are definitely ready! :)

The implications of those words, also shifted completely for me, after seeing. You will come to see why.

Looking back at the supposed former 'self' there is some sadness...almost pity...how did this seeing take so long...

While we should not compare, I will share with you that it took me a little over twice as long as you, to see in THE GATE forum..if that is of some comfort

I consider it an incredible gift that we finally stumbled upon this place, against all odds. Most never do.

Looking forward to your answers!