I am, but there is no me

[Swaram]

Hi Kay and thank you for your message!

Yes, I'm working more deeply on a daily basis, spending a few days on each exercise and more striking comments. I'm nearly half way through. Is it okay if I get back to you in a couple of weeks?

[forgetmenot]

Hey Swaram,

Yes, take your time, I just wanted to check in to see how you were going...no pressure.

Withe love, Kay

[Swaram]

Hi Kay,

Just writing to let you know I'm still reviewing the thread. Will get back to you by the end of next week. Hope that's okay. Love, Swaram

[forgetmenot]

Hey Swaram....no problem :)

Love, Kay

[Swaram]

Hi Kay,

Hope you are well! Have finished working on the thread and am ready for some new material, if you're up for it. Below you will find my notes. Looking forward to hearing from you. Love, Swaram.

When re-reading the first few comments there was the realization that they are filled with identification with thoughts and stories.

As for your comments, it can be seen how many of the comments had really not been understood, as this time around much of their meaning is seen clearly.

I am at a training and it has been a challenge. I’m here for the techniques, but there is some “teaching” as well and that has been rough. It all seems phony...

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No. Thoughts just come and go on their own, including thoughts about a “me” still struggling with trying to control what thoughts come and go.

In fact, even when a thought comes up, “I’m making the next thought appear”, that itself is a thought that has come up on its own.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Thoughts come from noting and go to nothing. Just like experience. Just like every-thing else.

Can you push away any thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
Can you choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to control any thoughts? Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought ‘I’?

At the training they were talking about how you can suppress emotions if not careful. If there is no “you”, who is here to suppress anything? And what is “suppress” anyway? Just another thought.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence?

Take this question, for example. The AE of color comes up. The AE of thought comes up, labelled as “the question”. The AE of thought comes up, “the reply”. Another thought comes up and says, “there was a reply because there was a question”. But that’s the only “proof” of some organization, cause and effect, passage of time, etc. Thought isn’t proof of anything. Thought is just thought.

I can say to myself that I could have made a different thought appear only because I believe I am making the current thought appear. I still believe that, but as I said above at times it is seen that thoughts are happening in accordance to some order, some pattern that really has nothing to do with me. I have no control whatsoever.

There is a thought labelled “belief” and a thought about that thought that says “I still believe that”.
“Thoughts are happening in accordance to some order, some pattern that really has nothing to do with me” is another thought. In reality there is only the experience of thought.
“I have no control whatsoever” is another story.

Can you push away any thought?

“Pushing away thought” is just another thought.

I cannot control what thoughts will come up. Once they come up I can try to suppress them

“I can or cannot control what thoughts will come up” is a thought.
“I can try to suppress them” is a thought. A thought comes up. A thought labelled suppression comes up. A thought that says “I am trying to suppress this thought” comes up. All just thought.

I can try to choose the kind of thoughts I will have…if I try to have a happy thought…as soon as attention is off of it I completely lose control.

All just stories, thoughts. The same can be said for many of the comments in the thread.

And does the “I” thought have any more relevance than any other thought? Does and “I” thought know anything about and “I”?

The “I” thought is just another thought about an “I”.

And the more confused I get the more entangled I am.

There is a knowing, an insight, an experience. A thought, a commentary appears and says ‘the more confused I get the more entangled I am.’ The AE is mistaken for a thought.

So can you find anyone/anything that is aware or is awareness?

No. The "person" is a thought.

Are thoughts aware?

Thoughts are not aware. Thoughts are awareness.

The "I" who believes and who is fixated is AE of thought.

The "I" who believes is a thought about an "I". The "I" who is fixated is a thought about an "I".

So a thought cannot OWN anything. An “I” thought appears and says “I did”, “I have”, “I am” etc, but "I" is an idea and an idea cannot control/own anything.

There's no-thing here to own or control anything. Ownership and control do not exist as AE. They are ideas.

Does a subject of any kind give orders? What does this subject look like and where does it reside exactly?

When looking for a subject, it now can be seen more thoughts about an "I" as thoughts (expectation). In the beginning of the investigation, 'looking for a subject' didn't even make much sense. There was nowhere to look, nothing really to look for since the 'I' was so obviously real.

Drink A and B exercise. And how is it known that the drinks are already known?

Looking at a 'banana'. The 'taste' of a banana comes up as a thought. A thought says, 'I know what a banana tastes like'. However, it can be seen that the two are not at all linked. They are just two thoughts. Banana is taken and tasted. AE is taste. Whatever comes up is a story about the AE: this is what a banana tastes like, I know this taste, i like the taste of a banana, etc.

If a thought does not control the palm turning, then how can a thought instigate a reaction to the instructions?

A thought comes up: count to 5. Counting to 5 takes place. It seems the thought instigated the counting. This is cause and effect. However, it is all happening NOW. No time, no cause and effect. Incomprehensible...letting go...

Now compare the two ways to label experience- with the words 'I' or 'me', and without the words.

Eating a bowl of serial. "I am eating" suddenly seems unreal, empty. A thought. Simply "eating" points to the AE. AE is taste, color, smell, sensation.

I like this exercise because it shows how thought does that with AE continuously, yes? Like labelling colour “apple” etc.

Yes! It can be seen how thought and AE have in reality no connection (except for the fact that it is all knowing) It is really something quite obvious (like words for the same thing in different languages) but tends to go unseen if unexamined.

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

This post by Adyashanti came up on my facebook feed:

"The real blessing of this meeting is the opportunity to be stopped right now, not tomorrow. Awakening to the truth of your being won't be attained in the future. It's not something you prepare for or earn or deserve. Awakening is a radical shift in identity. You think you're you, but you're not. You are eternal being. The time to wake up is now. Not tomorrow. Now."

Have come across this type of message many times. Have always thought it referred to a needed sense of urgency. However, this time it is seen on a completely different light. He says wake up now and not tomorrow not because it is urgent, but because there is no such thing as tomorrow. Tomorrow is a thought.

There have been thoughts of going nowhere along with some anger at the whole process, especially at not having seen clearly that Swaram is a character, that the 'I' is an illusion. Also a sadness for working so hard and not feeling at peace.

Text above filled with expectations. 'I should be going somewhere.' 'I should see clearly that Swaram is a character', I should see clearly that the 'I' is an illusion'. 'I should be feeling at peace.'

Have you ever looked at thought? Really looked at it? Does thought have a voice? Does thought have sound? Does thought have an image? Does thought have a sensation? Does thought have a taste? Does thought have a smell? Can you describe a thought?

Thought is just a fleeting appearance. Empty of content, 'transparent', very clever device. Some thoughts mimic seeing. Others hearing. Others even smelling and tasting. But ultimately they are all empty, like ghosts.

Now, there is awareness that 'everything must be welcomed into experience'. This comes up every now and then, but this time it is seen as a thought. There's really no one to welcome anything.

Intellectual understandings apart, this is what is observed: While looking, only sensations, thoughts, sounds, and color can be found. That is, up until now. The separate self might still be somewhere. Guess that's why the looking continues...

Looking with a purpose is seeking...

When you return to the mirror each time, consider whether these 'body colours' have ever appeared before.

If there's no thought, there's just experiencing, now.

When you go to sleep, is the body actually going to sleep, is there a someone who is going to sleep and then who is waking up the next day as if on a time line? Let me know what comes to you, if you so wish.

'Someone going to sleep and waking up the next day' is a thought story. This is clearly seen. 'Going to sleep' happens now. 'Waking up' happens now. There is an attempt to understand, to rationalize. A feeling that the entire thing is way beyond comprehension. Resting in 'I don't know'...

Etc. Thought trying to convince thought, the trying itself a thought.

Thought cannot convince anyone or anything. Thought is just an empty appearance.

An investigation:

I've been exploring the unexamined assumption that seeing comes from the 'eyes'. There is seeing (AE). The label 'eyes' is AE of thought. There is an AE sensation labelled 'eyes'. There are mental images of 'eyes'. All about the 'eyes' and seeing, the connection is made as a thought. Very bizarre.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Swaram,

Lovely to hear from you and what a fantastic post to read! It is great to see that you have seen through the nature of thought and that there is so much clarity now!

How does all this feel now? How does seeing through thoughts clearly, and having clarity about what we have been looking at…feel?

I've been exploring the unexamined assumption that seeing comes from the 'eyes'. There is seeing (AE). The label 'eyes' is AE of thought. There is an AE sensation labelled 'eyes'. There are mental images of 'eyes'. All about the 'eyes' and seeing, the connection is made as a thought. Very bizarre.

Nice looking. Okay, so let’s investigate the unexamined assumption with the following experiment.


Close your eyes. With eyes closed, there is the experience of AE of colour labelled 'black’. There may a bright light, a red glow, sparkly bits or cloudy flecks appearing and disappearing - It really doesn't matter about the specifics. We are just noticing ‘black’.

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is simply AE of colour labelled ‘black’?
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than seeing ‘black’?
3) Can what is seeing ‘black’ found?
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is ‘seeing’ ‘black’?

Is there anything that is witnessing the colour labelled ‘black’; or is there just 'black’ to be found?

Look very carefully. Where does ‘seeing’ end and colour begin? Can a dividing line between ‘seeing’ and colour be found? Or is there just seeing/colour?

Can a 'see-er' ever be found in 'what is being seen' – AE colour?

If that is all, and no INHERENT SEE-ER found . . . would anything that is suggested as the see-er be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

Okay….then open the eyes and look around.

Is there a difference between the ‘black’ when eyes are closed and ‘colour’ when eyes are open or are they both simply the appearance of colour?

Is there anything that is witnessing colour?

With love, Kay

[Swaram]

Hi Kay. Thank you for your reply. Here are my comments. In gratitude, Swaram.

How does all this feel now? How does seeing through thoughts clearly, and having clarity about what we have been looking at…feel?

Guess the most striking thing is that there is more looking and less seeking...

Is there anything that is witnessing the colour labelled ‘black’; or is there just 'black’ to be found?

There's colors, thoughts about a witness, sensations.

Look very carefully. Where does ‘seeing’ end and colour begin? Can a dividing line between ‘seeing’ and colour be found? Or is there just seeing/colour?

Seeing is color and color is seeing.

Can a 'see-er' ever be found in 'what is being seen' – AE colour?

Only thoughts about a seer can be found.

If that is all, and no INHERENT SEE-ER found . . . would anything that is suggested as the see-er be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

No.

Is there a difference between the ‘black’ when eyes are closed and ‘colour’ when eyes are open or are they both simply the appearance of colour?

Really no difference.

Is there anything that is witnessing colour?

There's only seeing, which is color.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Swaram,

We have covered everything, so I am going to give you the following questions to see where we are at. Can you answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you , rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

With love, Kay

[Swaram]

Hi Kay and thank you for your message.

Really don’t think I am ready for these questions, but I’ll answer them anyway, because, after all, that’s just another thought, right?
I wish we could continue the investigation. Your feedback to my words has been incredibly helpful. But things are as they are. I’ll just carry on looking.

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

Intellectually, the answer is a resounding ‘no’. Experientially, there is a belief in a separate ‘I’. Yes, the belief is a thought, but not sure this has been clearly seen.

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

The separate self is the ‘person’. The ‘person’ is a thought. A belief. This belief appears as a sort of ‘addendum’ to other thoughts, to sensations, sounds, taste, smell, touch. This addendum claims ownership of the experience and creates the illusion of a complex, of a whole. This happens because it goes unexamined.

How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

Not sure this has really been seen. The understanding is there intellectually. There is, however, a difference from before the dialogue. There is a greater sense of presence. Thoughts and emotions have diminished in intensity. The shifts to here and now, to the actual experience, have been happening more often.

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Desperation, I guess.

a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

a) Decision, intention, free will, choice, and control all happen by themselves. As mentioned earlier, a thought which includes the decision, intention, etc. and an addendum claiming ownership comes up, and while unexamined, maintains the illusion of an agent, a subject.
b) There is just happening. No idea how it works. A great mystery.
c) There is no ‘me’ to be responsible for anything.
d) _

Anything to add?

I can only thank you for your kind attention, patience and willingness in guiding me through this investigation.

Much love to you,

Swaram

[forgetmenot]

Hey Swaram,

Really don’t think I am ready for these questions, but I’ll answer them anyway, because, after all, that’s just another thought, right?

It is not thought that is the problem, the problem is that you are ‘believing’ in what you are “feeling”. “I still feel like I am a person”!

Imagine you lost your keys and you could swear you left them in your pocket. But when you go to check, they are not there. You empty out all your pockets, still no keys. You feel very strongly that they must be there because that was the last place you saw them. But they are simply not there. In this case, your actual experience contradicts what it is you are feeling. This happens all the time. The problem is that believing in your feelings and not your direct experience will keep you from understanding clearly. It is important to understand that just because you feel something is true, does not mean that it is. You can simply look and see what is true and what is not.

I wish we could continue the investigation. Your feedback to my words has been incredibly helpful. But things are as they are. I’ll just carry on looking.

There is an idea here that you need my continuing input. You have re-read your thread, you have re done the exercises, there is nothing more that can be done, other to keep pointing to the same thing over and over. You will keep getting the same result when LOOKING, you don't need me to keep pointing to the same thing.

You are wanting the flip flopping to stop and just want absolute clarity 24/7 as proof that you have seen. My pointing cannot give you that, only your looking can do that. Absolute clarity does not happen overnight. The realisation happens and the flip flopping happens until it doesn’t. What is it exactly that wants the flip flopping to stop? By now the looking would be automatic…in other words the looking is happening on its own without effort needed. After gating I continued you to look…day in and day out throughout the day. It nearly drove me insane and it took a year for me for the flip flopping to stop. There is no time frame on that…and everyone goes through it.

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

Intellectually, the answer is a resounding ‘no’. Experientially, there is a belief in a separate ‘I’. Yes, the belief is a thought, but not sure this has been clearly seen.

How does intellectually knowing differ to experientially knowing? What does that look like?

What does liberation look like compared to not being liberated?

There is an expectation here. What do you think should happen when you have realised there is no separate self? How should that look, how should life be? If you can see that the 'belief' is a thought, then what is the desire here? What needs to happens for you to say...yes, I have seen 100% that there is no separate self?

With love, Kay

[Swaram]

Hi Kay, thank you for your post. The first couple of paragraphs were very revealing. My answers to your questions below. In true gratitude, Swaram.

How does intellectually knowing differ to experientially knowing? What does that look like?

Intellectually knowing is knowing through thought alone, experientially knowing is deeper; it brings knowing through having seen, through experience. I sense there's something not quite right with this statement, but cannot pinpoint what it is.

What does liberation look like compared to not being liberated?

I have no idea what liberation looks like.

There is an expectation here. What do you think should happen when you have realised there is no separate self? How should that look, how should life be? If you can see that the 'belief' is a thought, then what is the desire here? What needs to happens for you to say...yes, I have seen 100% that there is no separate self?

Life will be the same, but I will know there is no separate self, the belief will be gone. And that's what needs to happen...the illusion needs to be seen through. It is seen that these are thoughts, but the illusion must be seen through anyway.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Swaram,

How does intellectually knowing differ to experientially knowing? What does that look like?

Intellectually knowing is knowing through thought alone, experientially knowing is deeper; it brings knowing through having seen, through experience. I sense there's something not quite right with this statement, but cannot pinpoint what it is.

What exactly is it that has an intellectual knowing? How is this illusory you going to experientially experience ‘no self’ when there is NO SELF? How can you experience something that isn’t? I don’t even know what that means or looks like! When you LOOK can you find a separate self?

You want the identification with an “I/self” to stop as proof that you have 100% clearly seen that there is no self! Can you not see that that idea/thought is just another thought bubble and is seen in utter clarity. Even the idea that something is identifying with thought is just an idea. There is NOTHING here that can identify with thought. Only thought says that anything is identifying as anything.

The only proof there is that there is no separate self, is that when you actually LOOK and you cannot find this separate self…what other proof is there? Does the idea of Swaram need to disappear for you to then say…oh…there is no Swaram. Find this Swaram for me and tell me where he is. That is how simple all of this is. If you have looked many many times and you have not found a separate self in any shape or form…then what more are you wanting? And what is the AE of “wanting more” and what is it exactly that is wanting more?

I want you to LOOK everywhere, like one does when they lose their keys and see if you can find this no self that needs to experientially experience no self!

What does liberation look like compared to not being liberated?

I have no idea what liberation looks like.

LOL exactly...so how is it known what liberation is? Liberation from what exactly?
I want you to find the ‘you’ that is not liberated and the ‘you’ that wants to be liberated. Let me know when and where you find this ‘you’.

There is an expectation here. What do you think should happen when you have realised there is no separate self? How should that look, how should life be? If you can see that the 'belief' is a thought, then what is the desire here? What needs to happens for you to say...yes, I have seen 100% that there is no separate self?

Life will be the same, but I will know there is no separate self, the belief will be gone. And that's what needs to happen...the illusion needs to be seen through. It is seen that these are thoughts, but the illusion must be seen through anyway.

Exactly, so you are expecting the thought “I” to disappear and with it all references to an “I”. There has NEVER EVER BEEN a you who is an independent separate self.

Are you the author of thought? Can you stop thoughts of any kind from appearing? Can you control what thoughts appear or what they are saying? If not, then how can the thoughts about a "me" be stopped? (Which means the same as to dissolve the sense of being someone)
Is there anything special about "me-thoughts?"
What exactly is the difference between a thought about "me" and a thought about Santa Clause, or marmalade?
If you see a difference, please tell me about it elaborately.

With love, Kay

[Swaram]

Hi Kay,

Please see my comments below. Gratitude, Swaram

What exactly is it that has an intellectual knowing?

Nothing. Whatever it is, knowing, a sofa, sensation, just comes up by itself. It is clearly seen what you mean when you mentioned earlier that I am believing in what I'm feeling, and not the AE.

How is this illusory you going to experientially experience ‘no self’ when there is NO SELF? How can you experience something that isn’t? I don’t even know what that means or looks like! When you LOOK can you find a separate self?

To be completely honest, I'm literally at a loss for words. I am unable to answer your questions. You're absolutely right. The only thing is to keep looking...

I want you to LOOK everywhere, like one does when they lose their keys and see if you can find this no self that needs to experientially experience no self!

Yes. Have been looking.

LOL exactly...so how is it known what liberation is? Liberation from what exactly?
I want you to find the ‘you’ that is not liberated and the ‘you’ that wants to be liberated. Let me know when and where you find this ‘you’.

Again, cannot utter a word. Will just keep on looking.

Are you the author of thought? Can you stop thoughts of any kind from appearing? Can you control what thoughts appear or what they are saying? If not, then how can the thoughts about a "me" be stopped? (Which means the same as to dissolve the sense of being someone)
Is there anything special about "me-thoughts?"
What exactly is the difference between a thought about "me" and a thought about Santa Clause, or marmalade?
If you see a difference, please tell me about it elaborately.

Thoughts just appear and cannot be controlled. The sense of being someone cannot be controlled and me-thoughts are just thoughts.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Swaram,

I want you to tell me how you look. When I ask you to look everywhere for the separate self....what do you do to look? Describe to me the steps you take and to to look please.

With love, Kay

[Swaram]

I want you to tell me how you look. When I ask you to look everywhere for the separate self....what do you do to look? Describe to me the steps you take and to to look please.

Yes. Right now I am sitting on a sofa watching tv. I look by becoming aware of (directing my attention to) my immediate experience. The sensations I call 'body', the sounds, the colors, the smells, thoughts., without trying to change anything. Inside there is thought narrating the entire thing. I am always aware of these elements, but never a solid whole I can call a 'separate self'. I do this several times throughout the day wherever I am.

I also sit silently with my eyes closed twice daily. Here, in addition to the sensations, sounds, colors, etc, I also look at what is referenced as 'me'. There is awareness that there is a 'me' who is looking. I proceed to dissect it into its elements. A sensation in the forehead/chest, a constantly changing mental image, emotions and thoughts about this 'me'. The 'me' can always be separated into 'independent' elements. Many times there is the awareness that this is just a useless vicious circle, with a self-feeding thought story about looking and sensing and etc.

What I mean is that entire thing can always be seen. What is going on is always known. It's like a 'hit'. The awareness just hits me.

Like allowing things to be as they are. Emotions, thoughts, the 'I', etc. come up and there is an effort to allow them to be as they are. An effort to welcome them. Then it hit me that this is just another story, because whatever is here is already here. It has already been allowed.

Sorry if this sounds confusing. Hope I have answered your question.