Ready to wake up

[bluecat18]

Hi Kay,

But is there an experience that the 'now' is moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one 'moment' giving way to the next?
Any actual experience of one event following another?

There is only this what is "now". No experience of events following each other.

How fast is the 'present moment' actually moving?

It just is :D

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

No.

How long does the 'now' last?

This cannot be answered. This moment doesn't last, it just is.

Where does the 'now' start, and where does it end?

It is always "now".

When does the 'now' exactly become the 'past'?

When an idea of the past arises.

What is the 'past' in actual experience?

Actually there is no past, just a thought (memory).

So is there actual experience of 'time' or thoughts about 'time'?

Thoughts about time.

I was looking at this and at one point there came a feeling that I am going to lose my orientation and control. It felt scary. I had to "bring myself back" to "normal" way of seeing things.

Bluecat

[forgetmenot]

Hey Bluecat,

Nice looking at time!

I was looking at this and at one point there came a feeling that I am going to lose my orientation and control. It felt scary. I had to "bring myself back" to "normal" way of seeing things.

Appearances come and go, even appearances of the idea of “losing orientation and control”, did you look to see what it is exactly that has orientation and control and that could lose orientation and control?

Here is an interesting exercise in how labels do not have a one-to-one correspondence with reality:

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?
Is the colour red experienced, or is the colour green experienced as the label suggests?
Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’?
Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here and now (red colour)?
Is green-ness inherent attributes of the experience of the colour red, or is green just a word label on the experience of the colour red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?
Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened.
That a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

What is memory exactly? – please don’t go to thought explanation, but just let a memory be there, and look at it…

What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

WHEN does the future thought appear?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?

Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say… but what actually is.

With love, Kay

[bluecat18]

Hi Kay,

When you look at the word label 'GREEN', what is the actual experience?
Is the colour red experienced, or is the colour green experienced as the label suggests?
Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with 'reality'?
Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here and now (red colour)?
Is green-ness inherent attributes of the experience of the colour red, or is green just a word label on the experience of the colour red?

There is red colour experienced, the label green is just a label. It does not have any correspondence with what is here and now. There is no experience of greenness.

If the label 'GREEN' is replaced with the label 'GOOD' or 'BAD', is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?
Does redness become 'good' or 'bad', or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on 'reality'?

Redness is not affected in any way. I tried this with many experiences today. It was funny to see that thoughts had no effect on what is seen.

What is the memory 'made of'?

Thoughts.

WHEN does the memory appear?

Now.

What is the exact difference between a 'general' thought and a 'memory' thought?

Memory thought "feels" more "personal".

How is it known EXACTLY that a 'memory' thought refers to something that has happened?

Another thought tells so.

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought 'made of'?

Thoughts.

WHEN does the future thought appear?

Now.

What is the exact difference between a 'general' thought and a 'future' thought?

Future thought "feels" more "personal".

How is it known EXACTLY that a 'future' thought refers to something that will happen?

Another thought tells so.

Then let's compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?

There is no difference. They just come and go, like all other thoughts.

It was weird, but I was having trouble in bringing up thoughts about the past and the future. They come when they come, but "I" cannot control them. I am starting to lose the idea about the story of me.

Bluecat

[forgetmenot]

Hey Bluecat,

If the label 'GREEN' is replaced with the label 'GOOD' or 'BAD', is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?
Does redness become 'good' or 'bad', or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on 'reality'?

Redness is not affected in any way. I tried this with many experiences today. It was funny to see that thoughts had no effect on what is seen.

Exactly! So experience/THIS is not affected by how it seemingly appears, no matter what thought labels experience as, including person, "I/me", fear, confusion, doubt, resistance, anger, tree, bird, etc

What is the exact difference between a 'general' thought and a 'memory' thought?

Memory thought "feels" more "personal".

What exactly is it that “feels” a memory thought is more “personal”?

There is absolutely not difference between a general thought and a memory thought. They are just simply thought appearing. The only SEEMING difference is what they point to, however are they pointing to AE or do they point to just further thought?

“Memory thought “feels” more “personal” is just another thought. When you replace that thought with “blahblahblah”, what remains?

What is the exact difference between a 'general' thought and a 'future' thought?

Future thought "feels" more "personal".

What exactly is it that “feels” a future thought is more “personal”?

There is absolutely no difference between a general thought and a future thought. They are just simply thought appearing. The only SEEMING difference is what they point to, however are they pointing to AE or do they point to just further thought?

“Future thought “feels” more “personal” is just another thought. When you replace that thought with “blahblahblah”, what remains?

A thought is much like a piece of graffiti scribbled on a wall. Graffiti doesn't know the wall exists. It doesn't know it is appearing on the wall. It doesn't know whether its words are true or not. It doesn't know that it is saying anything. It doesn't know anything *whatsoever*. Similarly, a thought is just a bit of decoration appearing in THIS. It appears. You are aware of it. But it knows nothing whatsoever about reality. And that is all there is to thought

It was weird, but I was having trouble in bringing up thoughts about the past and the future. They come when they come, but "I" cannot control them. I am starting to lose the idea about the story of me.

Lovely! And how does this feel?

Okay, so.....

Has it been clearly seen that there is no separate individual (“I/me”), and never has been?

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

With love, Kay

[bluecat18]

Hi Kay,

What exactly is it that "feels" a memory thought is more "personal"?

It is an idea/a thought.

"Memory thought "feels" more "personal" is just another thought. When you replace that thought with "blahblahblah", what remains?

Just what is.

What exactly is it that "feels" a future thought is more "personal"?

It is an idea/a thought.

"Future thought "feels" more "personal" is just another thought. When you replace that thought with "blahblahblah", what remains?

Just what is.

It was weird, but I was having trouble in bringing up thoughts about the past and the future. They come when they come, but "I" cannot control them. I am starting to lose the idea about the story of me.

Lovely! And how does this feel?

It feel almost indifferent. There is freedom and lightness

Has it been clearly seen that there is no separate individual ("I/me"), and never has been?

Not clearly, just glimpses.

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

It is still mostly an idea that there is no "me". I would like it to be experienced more. And I would like to live freely in this actual experience. There is this hoping for some kind of big realization. After which, I would be "done" with this.

Bluecat

[forgetmenot]

Hey Bluecat,

It was weird, but I was having trouble in bringing up thoughts about the past and the future. They come when they come, but "I" cannot control them. I am starting to lose the idea about the story of me.

Lovely! And how does this feel?

It feel almost indifferent. There is freedom and lightness

Great...a lovely shift.

Has it been clearly seen that there is no separate individual ("I/me"), and never has been?

Not clearly, just glimpses.

There is an expectation here…what is it? That the idea of a ‘self/me/I’ will disappear completely?
There has never been a separate self and the idea of a self has always appeared, why would that be different now? Just because the idea of a ‘self’ still appears, does that mean that there is actually a separate self.

Seeing through the illusion of “I” doesn’t mean you will lose the “I” and with it your whole identity. The “I” doesn’t exist, not even now as you are reading these lines.

What happened when you realised that Santa Claus was a just a character in a story? Did Santa disappear completely, did Christmas stop coming around, did it stop snowing? Did carols stop being sung and presents stopped being exchanged? Did life change at all? Or the only thing that changed was the idea that he was real?

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

It is still mostly an idea that there is no "me". I would like it to be experienced more. And I would like to live freely in this actual experience. There is this hoping for some kind of big realization. After which, I would be "done" with this

.

How could a no “me” be experienced more and what exactly is it that wants to experience a no “me” more? Again, what is the expectation?

Where else could you possibly be ‘living’ if not in the now? There is no big bang realisation. At the beginning of the exploration we addressed expectations. A question I asked Is “What will be different”. Your response was “I don’t take life so seriously and personally”. You have had shift, although you don’t recognise it because you are wanting bright lights and trumpeting angels to tell you that you have reached enlightenment! How do I know you have had a shift, because of your experience when driving your car where you ended up laughing; and when I have asked on several occasions “how does this feel”, you have responded with …there is lightness and freedom. The rest is expectation on how it should look or how you want it to look. How you think it should look or hope it should look is just a thought.

You want the identification with an “I/self” to stop as proof that you have 100% clearly seen that there is no self....right? But that idea/thought is just another thought bubble and is seen in utter clarity. Even the idea that something is identifying with thought about being able to choose, decide, control is just an idea. There is NOTHING here that can identify with thought or identify as a separate self. Only thought says that something is identifying as/with anything and that there is something that is/can control, choose, decide or do.

There is this hoping for some kind of big realization. After which, I would be "done" with this.

There is no ‘done’ with this! Are you in control of what thoughts appear or what SEEMS to happen? No. So how can you possibly be ‘done’ with this? This isn’t like training for a marathon and then running the marathon and it is done!

This exploration is just a beginning and not an ending. There will still be beliefs and patterns that are rooted in the idea of being a separate self that will need clearing as not everything gets rewritten in one big hit. The core belief of being a separate self is seen through; and just like a rug that is beginning to unravel, there are still many knots that need undoing. But if you know that the ‘conditioning’ is not something that you own, then it is easier to clear. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key.

What I suggest you do now is that you go back to the beginning of your thread and re-read it thoroughly. If you feel inclined to repeat some exercises, then do so.
When you have finished reading your thread, report back and let me know what you found.



With love, Kay

[bluecat18]

Hi Kay,

There is an expectation here…what is it? That the idea of a 'self/me/I' will disappear completely?

Yes and that there is no more "my" problems.

What happened when you realised that Santa Claus was a just a character in a story? Did Santa disappear completely, did Christmas stop coming around, did it stop snowing? Did carols stop being sung and presents stopped being exchanged? Did life change at all? Or the only thing that changed was the idea that he was real?

Only the idea that Santa was real chanced.

How could a no "me" be experienced more and what exactly is it that wants to experience a no "me" more? Again, what is the expectation?

There is a thought that I don't know how to live without an I. But that is just a thought, I have always lived without it. I would like to see the thoughts that point to I to stop. Only that I have no control over thoughts.

I will continue re-reading this thread and report my findings :)

Bluecat

[forgetmenot]

Hello Bluecat,

There is an expectation here…what is it? That the idea of a 'self/me/I' will disappear completely?

Yes and that there is no more "my" problems.

Go back to the experience of driving your car! Are you the controller/doer? Do you decide what you are aware of and what thoughts will or won't appear? If you look is there a 'you' who is solving problems? What problems exactly? What is the difference between a 'general' thought and a thought about 'problems'?

What happened when you realised that Santa Claus was a just a character in a story? Did Santa disappear completely, did Christmas stop coming around, did it stop snowing? Did carols stop being sung and presents stopped being exchanged? Did life change at all? Or the only thing that changed was the idea that he was real?

Only the idea that Santa was real chanced.

Yes! LOOKING needs to continue to happen after the realisation. After a time, and there is no time-frame to when that will be, it becomes a knowing. There is no magic wand. It still takes persistent and consistent LOOKING for other beliefs etc to start to fall away, it is up to you whether you continue to do so.

How could a no "me" be experienced more and what exactly is it that wants to experience a no "me" more? Again, what is the expectation?

There is a thought that I don't know how to live without an I. But that is just a thought, I have always lived without it. I would like to see the thoughts that point to I to stop. Only that I have no control over thoughts.

“There is a thought”, exactly! See how the “I” just pops up even in the sentences you wrote above!

First, look at this "I" thought directly.
If you need, say "I" loudly a few times or just as a thought.
Look directly at it.

Then after that, look at the thought "O".
What is the difference between these two thoughts?
Is there a difference in their nature? Or is it just different content? A different letter?

Then look at the thought "E".
Is there something special about the thought "E"?
If not, how then is something special about the thought "I"?

At last, look at the thought "A".
Can the thought "A" dominate?
If not, how exactly can the thought "I" dominate?

And...what is it exactly that is dominated by the thought "I"?

I will continue re-reading this thread and report my findings :)

Terrific! :)

With love, Kay

[forgetmenot]

Hello Bluecat,

How have you found reading your thread from the beginning and redoing some of the exercises?

With love, Kay

[bluecat18]

Hi Kay,

How have you found reading your thread from the beginning and redoing some of the exercises?

It has been helpful and I'm grateful that it is there for me always to come back to.

I have had a couple of aha moments. There was this thought that if I am not doing anything, then who is the one that seems to be doing things. There was this misunderstanding of the inquiry "who am I". I was looking for this "I" that was supposed to be some kind of "ultimate entity". Then it was seen that this was also just a thought. Thought wants to know things. Reality just is. This was a big revelation to have.

I have been replacing thoughts with "blahblah" a lot. It helps to clear things. Things are losing their meaning. It is seen that many things aren't really that important. People do many silly things without even questioning them. I see this in me too. Life is becoming more "spacious". I don't have to be doing something all the time. Actually this doing was mostly thinking, I was "living" my life in my thoughts.

Bluecat

[forgetmenot]

Hello Bluecat,

How have you found reading your thread from the beginning and redoing some of the exercises?

It has been helpful and I'm grateful that it is there for me always to come back to.

I have had a couple of aha moments. There was this thought that if I am not doing anything, then who is the one that seems to be doing things. There was this misunderstanding of the inquiry "who am I". I was looking for this "I" that was supposed to be some kind of "ultimate entity". Then it was seen that this was also just a thought. Thought wants to know things. Reality just is. This was a big revelation to have.

What a great revelation! Yes, thought wants to know things, and there are no things to know, every ‘thing’ simply IS!

I have been replacing thoughts with "blahblah" a lot. It helps to clear things. Things are losing their meaning. It is seen that many things aren't really that important. People do many silly things without even questioning them. I see this in me too. Life is becoming more "spacious". I don't have to be doing something all the time. Actually this doing was mostly thinking, I was "living" my life in my thoughts.

Wow! “I was “living” my life in my thought”! Nice!

Can you please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you right now, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

With love, Kay

[bluecat18]

Hi Kay,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No there is not and never was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

It starts in early childhood when our parents start to teach about things in the world. They tell that this body is you and that you are separate from other bodies. Parents point at colours and label them as trees, cars etc. Then the child starts to label things himself/herself and collect beliefs which he/she identifies with. This identifying process and thoughts believed create the illusion of separate self with its own worldview and life.

3) How does it feel to see this?

It feels very natural. Like of course it has always been like this, what is all the fuss about.

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

I am much calmer and now I know what to do when identifying happens or is seen. When thoughts, that earlier caused me to feel negative feelings and spiral down into almost depressive states, arise I can now soon if not immediately look at them and replace them with "blahblah" and they are seen what they actually are, just thoughts. This brings me back to reality.
I don't expect enlightenment to bring me some super happy, ecstatic state anymore. There is just what is, states may differ from moment to moment, but there is always this calmness "underneath".

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I cannot point to any specific moment. It feels like with every realization something just melted away.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

Decisions seems to be made, intention seems to be there, choices are made, but there is no entity to do them. Things happen and thoughts comment. There is no one to have free will or to be in control.

b) What makes things happen? How does it work?

I have no idea :D They just happen.

c) What are you responsible for?

Now it feels that only thing I am responsible for is to look and realize what is true. Although I don't know what it is that is doing the looking…

d) Give examples from experience.

When a thought arises for example that this person does not like me, then I look is that really true, what is actually happening. This has helped me to relax more around people.
Also, I have looked at old beliefs and every time they are seen through I feel a lot lighter.

6) Anything to add?

I am very grateful and like to thank you a lot for guiding me. Like I said before the thread will always be there for me to go back to. This guidance has helped me by challenging to look deeper. And it has been great to have been able to "talk" to someone about this. People around me are not interested in this kind of stuff.

Bluecat

[forgetmenot]

Hello Bluecat,

What are you responsible for?

Now it feels that only thing I am responsible for is to look and realize what is true. Although I don't know what it is that is doing the looking…

Since you don't know what is doing the looking, then what is it exactly that is choosing to, or is responsible "to look and realize what is true"?

d) Give examples from experience.

When a thought arises for example that this person does not like me, then I look is that really true, what is actually happening. This has helped me to relax more around people.
Also, I have looked at old beliefs and every time they are seen through I feel a lot lighter.

That's great! Can you provide an example from your own experience on how it is seen that there is no one that is deciding, intending, choosing, or controlling.

With love, Kay

[bluecat18]

Hi Kay,

Since you don't know what is doing the looking, then what is it exactly that is choosing to, or is responsible "to look and realize what is true"?

No one choosing, it is just what is happening and thought claims that it is important and something that "I" need to do. Thank you for this question :)

That's great! Can you provide an example from your own experience on how it is seen that there is no one that is deciding, intending, choosing, or controlling.

There is a thought about "I decide to do the dishes now". Then the dishes get done or not. The thought has nothing to do with that.

Yesterday I "intended" (had a thought) to do this writing assignment. But it did not get done. Thoughts commented that about the situation: you have to do it, you have to do this other thing etc. But they did not have anything to do with what was actually happening.

When visiting a friend, she asked me if I take coffee or tea, the answer that time was tea. The word just came, and no chooser was needed. I don't even think about choosing things anymore, I just see what happens. If that makes any sense.

I used to think that I controlled everything and when things were in control all would be fine. Now it is seen that there is no "I" to control or anything to be controlled. How can an imagined entity control anything? "I" cannot even control this body, everything happens on its own. And everything gets taken care of just fine.

Bluecat

[forgetmenot]

Hey Bluecat,

Since you don't know what is doing the looking, then what is it exactly that is choosing to, or is responsible "to look and realize what is true"?

No one choosing, it is just what is happening and thought claims that it is important and something that "I" need to do. Thank you for this question :)

I knew you had it, but you know me, I double check! :D

That's great! Can you provide an example from your own experience on how it is seen that there is no one that is deciding, intending, choosing, or controlling.

There is a thought about "I decide to do the dishes now". Then the dishes get done or not. The thought has nothing to do with that.

Yesterday I "intended" (had a thought) to do this writing assignment. But it did not get done. Thoughts commented that about the situation: you have to do it, you have to do this other thing etc. But they did not have anything to do with what was actually happening.

When visiting a friend, she asked me if I take coffee or tea, the answer that time was tea. The word just came, and no chooser was needed. I don't even think about choosing things anymore, I just see what happens. If that makes any sense.

I used to think that I controlled everything and when things were in control all would be fine. Now it is seen that there is no "I" to control or anything to be controlled. How can an imagined entity control anything? "I" cannot even control this body, everything happens on its own. And everything gets taken care of just fine.

Great examples, thank you! I find the same with doing the dishes, and when I do do the dishes there is an enjoyment in doing them. Never thought I would live to say that! LOL.

Okay from here I will get some other guides to read your thread to make sure I have covered everything and that all is clear. This may take a day or two. There may or may not be further questions, but when I know I will let you know.

With love, Kay