Selfless Living?

[emptyself]

perhaps we need to clarify what exactly we mean with direct experience and how this relates to the self existing or not? I just feel myself in a whirl of confusion.

[Bananafish]

Ok, please forget about the word "direct experience". it is supposed to be used to clarify,
but there is no use in it if it doesn't work as such.

Although confusion can be a really good sign that your beliefs are shaken!
Can you bear with the confusion, and stick with it?

[Bananafish]

I guess as soon as one begins the process of reporting, it is 2nd hand and therefore based on memory - so yes both are gone.

I want you to investigate the above and be very clear about whether it is true or not.

When you are reporting that you experienced image and sensation, are the image and sensation
that once was experienced gone, or not?

[emptyself]

Can you bear with the confusion, and stick with it?

Sure I can. - Grateful for you hanging in here with me!

When you are reporting that you experienced image and sensation, are the image and sensation
that once was experienced gone, or not?

Yes they are gone. (I am doing them again to report - the initial ones are gone)

[Bananafish]

Ooops, I'm sorry ... I missed one of the points you made. :(

perhaps we need to clarify what exactly we mean with direct experience and how this relates to the self existing or not?

This inquiry is for investigating whether thoughts can have command of one's action, decision, or feeling,
which is really close (or even identical) to investigating whether "I" have command of life.

It is commonly believed so, but I'm asking a big "Is that true?"
and suggesting you to investigate it.


Thanks for your patience and sincerity. :)

[Bananafish]

Now, let's get to the next step.

You said that thought can initiate feelings.

When you recognize that a thought initiated feelings, what is this recognition
based on? Is it based on a memory or not?

[emptyself]

This inquiry is for investigating whether thoughts can have command of one's action, decision, or feeling,
which is really close (or even identical) to investigating whether "I" have command of life.

It is commonly believed so, but I'm asking a big "Is that true?"
and suggesting you to investigate it.

Thanks for clarifying. That is helpful. It does still seem to me that that is the case.

[emptyself]

When you recognize that a thought initiated feelings, what is this recognition
based on? Is it based on a memory or not?

Yes - it must be memory. The only way to link two events is with memory.

Yet, if I am watching myself have a thought and an emotional response follows, it does not feel like memory - it looks as if I am simply noticing one thing leading to another. But I suppose technically that must involve memory. The only thing we can know without memory is right now.

[Bananafish]

Have you ever seen a Kanizsa Triangle?

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/ent ... a_triangle


What if the link you perceived is just like the above; an optical illusion?


It's a bit late here and I'd like to call it a day. :)

[emptyself]

Have you ever seen a Kanizsa Triangle?

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/ent ... a_triangle


What if the link you perceived is just like the above; an optical illusion?

Yes, I am very familiar with it.

Well if it were an illusion it would change everything. I am open to exploring.

But I have no reason to believe it to be an illusion within the normal functioning of the world. ( I understand that quantum physics views the entire world as an illusion, and it is easy to discover that everything ultimately depends on conceptualization - but I understand that is not how we are investigating here).

So you have been intrigued. And if this is where I am still holding onto a self, it will be most interesting.

Talk tomorrow.

[Bananafish]

Good morning, emptyself.

Could you first try that beach imagery experiment again, and report what happened? It's perfectly OK for the report to be the same as yesterday's.

[Bananafish]

And yes, this is not about saying something like you can do whatever you want because there isn't an "I" in charge of the actions, or avoiding the use of the word "I" in everyday life. That a sheer nonsense. :)

[emptyself]

Could you first try that beach imagery experiment again, and report what happened? It's perfectly OK for the report to be the same as yesterday's.

So I imagine being on a beach and consequently, a range of emotions and bodily sensations are felt.

You then asked:

Now, based on your direct experience,
is it fair to say that you are now reporting on two things that occurred: visual image and a variety of sensations?

Yes, I am reporting on two things - a visual image is the first, the the sensations are the 2nd experience.

The 2nd experience is very obviously a consequence of the first. Simple cause and effect.

[emptyself]

When you report it, what are you referring to? Memory? Thought? Or ... ?

When I report the initial experience it is memory.

But I can recreate the experience now and report what is happening as it happens (or so it seems - I accept that there may be a time delay and I am reporting from memory

At the moment you report it, is it still a direct experience of both, or are both
gone?

If I am reporting what happened 10 seconds ago both are gone. It is memory

If I recreate it now - the answer would be as above (time delay - memory?)

The understanding I am getting is that reporting is a function of thought and comes after experience which has already gone when the reporting is happening. Still not sure how this helps.

Logically, everything is saying to me that what you are suggesting (the illusion of thought being causative) makes no sense at all. However, there is a sneaking suspicion that you are pointing me to an amazing unrecognised truth.

[Bananafish]

The 2nd experience is very obviously a consequence of the first.

Could you elaborate on what makes it "obvious"?


When you notice your feet stepping on a stone and then you notice a bird chirp,
can you say that a bird chirping is the consequence of your stepping on a stone?