Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

[samba19]

heya!

Normally we believe that sensation is coming from what is seen, the object in sight. So in this example, your hand is the object, and it's assumed sensation is coming from that hand. But is that really the case?

If you mean that the visual sensation travels into the eye in the form of light and then becomes and experience in the brain or something like that - that’s what science would suggest as a theory. And even direct experience would back that up to some extent (closing eye lids does limit sight which kinda suggests that seeing happens from behind the eyes, this is what’s causing me confusion). But still it can’t be said that the sensation comes from somewhere and/or goes somewhere else. Or is formed in some place. It just happens / is created with no location.

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as ‘hand’) or only thought and mental constructs link them?

I’m unsure if I understand the question but if you mean a link between ‘feeling of the hand’ and ‘seeing the hand’ - then I’d say they are two “independent” sensations. I can see the hand and not feel it (assumption yes but everyone has had a wooden hand -type of sensation, of loosing the feeling of a certain body part) and vice versa.

Does control as you see it require a controller? 

If I was to define ‘control’ as something like I have control over the hand, then the control would be the tangible part and the ‘I’ illusory. No one there in control.

xxx
-s-

[WesleySPK]

Hi Samba,

If you mean that the visual sensation travels into the eye in the form of light and then becomes and experience in the brain or something like that - that’s what science would suggest as a theory. And even direct experience would back that up to some extent (closing eye lids does limit sight which kinda suggests that seeing happens from behind the eyes, this is what’s causing me confusion). But still it can’t be said that the sensation comes from somewhere and/or goes somewhere else. Or is formed in some place. It just happens / is created with no location.

Hmm, it's more the assumption that the sensation is coming from what you are seeing, in this case your hand. You see your hand, and assume the sensation is actually happening there, rather than it being perhaps a mental construct in which thought links the sensation to what is seen. This is mostly theory though, just look how it actually happens in your own experience.

If you close your hands and hold out your hand...Is there a location of this sensation without thought? Or is the location coming from thought? However scientific a thought/story is, it has to be seen that this comes from thought, not from your senses. Open your eyes and close your eyes as many times until it's clear where the location is.

Let's go back to this:

No separate self but still control over just a single body - that would suggest there is some sort of separate unit driving just one body (or each body) instead of all bodies or all life.

Where is that separate unit? What is it like?

Hug,
Wesley

[samba19]

Hjelou!

Haha, just noticed a reaction when I realized you’ve addressed me as Samba every now and then and Samu in most cases :) allowing that reaction to happen and just observing, it seems something still needs protection… (by the way, that was thought, assumption, nothing more)

If you close your hands and hold out your hand...Is there a location of this sensation without thought? Or is the location coming from thought? However scientific a thought/story is, it has to be seen that this comes from thought, not from your senses. Open your eyes and close your eyes as many times until it's clear where the location is. 

There can never be a location for anything before thoughts step in to say where that location is. Without thought location cannot be described.

Let's go back to this:
No separate self but still control over just a single body - that would suggest there is some sort of separate unit driving just one body (or each body) instead of all bodies or all life.
Where is that separate unit? What is it like? 

Chuckles. I’m starting to look ridiculous with all this. Pointless reasoning. Trying to explain things that can’t be explained. I can’t find or define any separate unit. I’ve lost my point once again I think.

Yours truly, ‘Mr. pants down again’

[WesleySPK]

Hi Samu,

Haha, just noticed a reaction when I realized you’ve addressed me as Samba every now and then and Samu in most cases :) allowing that reaction to happen and just observing, it seems something still needs protection… (by the way, that was thought, assumption, nothing more)

Woops ;) I forgot that I had called you Samu before. Reacting may or may not have to do with the self, reactions still happen lots after the self-illusion is broken, likely even more.

Chuckles. I’m starting to look ridiculous with all this. Pointless reasoning. Trying to explain things that can’t be explained. I can’t find or define any separate unit. I’ve lost my point once again I think.

Yes this whole thing is incredibly mysterious, life, isn't it? So many explanations given, yet none are not 100% true. So if you look at experience right now without any thought interpretation, how does it work? Lift your arm. Now lower it. Now perhaps there is someone else, try to lift their arm as you did with yours. What happens? And despite the fact that it's only 'your' arm you can lift, is there any sort of separate unit to be found, center controller?

:) Wesley

[samba19]

Hola!

Yes this whole thing is incredibly mysterious, life, isn't it? So many explanations given, yet none are not 100% true. So if you look at experience right now without any thought interpretation, how does it work? Lift your arm. Now lower it. Now perhaps there is someone else, try to lift their arm as you did with yours. What happens? And despite the fact that it's only 'your' arm you can lift, is there any sort of separate unit to be found, center controller? 

Usually nothing happens if some other arm than the one on this body (‘Samu’) is tried to be lifted. Sometimes it might actually happen and a thought probably would claim that ‘I’ did it, LOLs. But no, can’t find the one who’s doing the lifting on any arm.

It’s all a big mystery which I’d like to explain but can’t. And don’t know what good it would be to be able to know all these why’s and how’s. Life happens. Blank.

[WesleySPK]

Hi Samu,

It’s all a big mystery which I’d like to explain but can’t.

Does it feel like something is uncomfortable about not being able to 'explain' how this all happens? What is it that would like to explain this mystery?

Hug,
Wesley

[samba19]

Hey W!

Does it feel like something is uncomfortable about not being able to 'explain' how this all happens?

Not really. Just a tendency of the ‘mind’ to try to understand things.

What is it that would like to explain this mystery? 

No idea. No-one and nothing to be found as usual.

[WesleySPK]

Hi Samu,

Would you feel ready for the final questions then?

Hug,
Wesley

[samba19]

sure!

[WesleySPK]

Hi Samu,

Here they are :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

-W

[samba19]

Hi Wes!

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No separation can be proved, nor time. So no and no.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. 

The belief is formed in childhood I’d say, learned from people around who believe in a separate self.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Can’t remember anymore. But there were more beliefs when starting the dialog compared to now.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 

Reading the gateless book made me look for the ‘me’ in the body and that pushed me over.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Words that really point to nothing tangible. Life happens, no-one doing it or being responsible for it.

6) Anything to add?

No.

[WesleySPK]

Hi Samu,

Sorry for my late reply here. Thanks for your answers, I'll get back to you in the next day or two.

-W