The truth

[Tuulikki]

Hi!

You know, i completely missed that first of the two messages you sent yesterday!!
Good that you mentioned that breathing experiment because that made me check your posts :)

And besides all that, i know i easily jump to conclusions and theorize things, i just can’t always help it. But it’s good that you are now reminding me of it :)

So the questions you had for me earlier:

”The moment you felt that intense feeling, were you aware of yourself, or the brain, or subconsciousness, that are supposed to be ones who produced it?”

Well, for a second when i heard that sound i wasn’t aware of myself or at least i wasn’t thinking about myself, but i did feel threatend and that’s why i felt i had to get away from there, but i know i wasn’t aware of my brain or subconsciousness. I’m never ”aware” of those two. Actually i didn’t feel threatend then when i heard the sound, only soon (very soon) after. When i heard the sound i was only aware of that. Eventhough it only lasted for a second or two.

”Do any of the feelings need a subject (you, ego, brain, whatever way call it)?”

No, the feelings don’t need a subject. They don’t need me, they just are. But without my awareness they wouldn’t be felt, experienced. So without awareness, would they even exist... if nothing was aware of them? I don’t think so.

”Now, a wee bit of experiment and observation: Feel the breath coming in and going out of your nose. Is that feeling separate from the one who feels it? The very moment it is felt, are there two separate things, the feeler and the felt? If so, where is the boundary between these two?”

Now this was hard at first, but i don’t think they are separate.They feel one and the same. No boundary. Just the ”felt”.

[Bananafish]

Good morning from Japan. :)

You are aware of the letters on the screen now, right? Are awareness and letters separate?

As you said, letters wouldn't exist without awareness. Now, would awareness of the letters exist without the letters?

Please take time looking at the display, and write whatever you noticed.


Also, for the breathing experiment, you don't sound crystal clear about the result. You might be just theorizing it by giving an answer.

You don't have to give a "correct" answer, as there is no such a thing. Keep doing it, be honest and address anything that came along with it.


Best regards,

Bananafish

[Tuulikki]

Hi Bananafish!

Well, about the breathing experiment, i really took my time with it and i really did not feel, that there was a separate feeler from the feeling it self. There is awareness of that sensation, but not a separate self who is feeling that sensation, i could not tag the one who felt the movement of the air in the nose.

I am really trying to be as honest as i can with this looking process, because i take this very seriously. I have been trying to forget almost all the things i have read from the LU book, so that i would really do the work myself :) But there have been things that changed my view of life after reading it, so i can’t go back to my ”old way” of ”thinking” anymore :)

And to your questions:

”You are aware of the letters on the screen now, right? Are awareness and letters separate?”

Yes, i’m aware of the letters on screen. No, nothing is separate! Everything is in constant interaction! There is no ”line” between these things!

”As you said, letters wouldn’t exist without awareness. Now, would awareness of the letters exist without the letters?”

How could there be awareness of the letters if there weren’t any letters? So there would have to be letters and awareness. But what are letters, where did they come from? To me, they rose from the awareness. Now, the letters and the awareness seems to be all just one and the same thing :)
I dont’t know did i understand this question correctly :)

[Bananafish]

Right! It's a matter of giving different
names to what is happening right here, right now.


Say that you gave a new name ... something like "ringo" ... to an apple. Does that name arise from an apple? Does a name arise from another name?


What about what you call "awareness?"

Do things rise from awareness? Where are things and awareness, if you don't name, or put labels on anything?


Look at the display again, and observe if
the display rises from consciousness. Check for any intellectualization here.

[Tuulikki]

Hi!

If i gave a new name to an apple, that name would not rise from an apple. Name is nothing more than a lable, a pointer to something. Name does not arise from a name. Name is nothing more than a word.

Things do not RISE from the ”awareness”. It is all one and the same. Where are things and awareness, if i don’t name or put labels on anything? I can’t separate things from the awareness. There are no lines. Everything is just perfectly connected. Colors and shapes,sounds, sensations, just beeing, existing everywhere. ”Awareness” is in them, they are in ”awareness”. Everything just is :) No limits. And if i don’t put a name or labels anywhere, i don’t think almost at all! I’m just experiencing everything in a neutral way! Just experiencing, looking, listening, feeling!

Now, looking at the display again and observing if it rises from the counsciousness.. Things don’t rise from the counsciousness, this display didn’t RISE from there. It is IN there. They are one and the same. Intellectualization is happening, because i’m trying to find words for something i don’t have words for :) Words actually seem to be distracting my observing! The need to label things seems to make things difficult, like a big mess of words in the head :)

[Bananafish]

Great, Tuulikki! :)

Now, it's time to use words to describe this.


What is the "I" when you say "I can't separate things from consciousness"?

Write as much as you need, and have fun. :)

[Tuulikki]

Hi!

”What is the ”i”, when i said ”i can’t separate things from consciousness”?

It is hard trying to put all that i feel about this into words, but i’ll try :)

It is the consciousness/awareness itself :) Here is no separate entity, who is separating things from anything. All just one and the same. In communicating the word ”i” points to the consciousness/awareness in this ”mind/body form” (whatever you wanna call it).
This might get all theorizing now, but it feels like consciousness is just communicating with itself through different ”sensors”. By sensors, i mean humans, animals, trees, plants, the earth etc. Everything is just different kind of energyforms. All is just one big energyfield, no boundaries where one ends and the other one begins, truly. All is one. Everything is in this consciousness and this consciousness is in everything. And all those are just words too, helping ”me” to communicate with ”you” :)
There is no need to theorize things, there is no need to know how everything truly works, it is just something what the mind does. There is awarenes of those thoughts without thinking they are true, without believing in them! Thinking does not stop, and it don’t have to. It is just happening.

And why i don’t believe in separate entity, is because when i have looked, i have seen that there is no ”i” in this body, because there is no ”i” who is in control of what is happening in this body and when. There is no ”i” in this mind/thoughts because there is no ”i” who is in control what thoughts arise and when. My past/history; just experiences, they are not ”me”. Here is just ”beeing”!

[Bananafish]

Fabulous observation, Tuulikki!

Some points I want to check ...


"Consciousness" has been a non-dual cliche nowadays, and I want you to make a fresh label that points to what you call "consciousness." If you were to put a unique name on it, what would be the label?


Also, can we have a look at what you
call "mind"? What is mind? Is it located somewhere?

[Tuulikki]

Hi :)

Yes, the word ”consciousness” is a very popular word nowadays, a cliche. A fresh label for it? I think i have heard so many alternative names for it by now that i don’t know how unique one i can come up with :) First i thought ”knowingness”, but i think that is used too..maybe a completely new and unique word i could come up for it is ”allness” or ”beeingness” or just ”experience” :)

What i call ”mind”, is not located anywhere. To me ”mind” is a word that holds a lot: thoughts that rise, memories/remembering, all thinking (of past, future, problem solving), labeling. So, not the things that the body is doing, like breathing, digestion, heart pumping etc.
But again, like any word, ”mind” is just a word, a label to help to communicate.
It feels like all these words are like boxes; the ”mind-box” holds this and that, and the ”body-box” this and that. But in reality these things can’t be separated! They work seamlessly together, there is no line between those things either! There really aren’t any boxes. There just seems to be those boxes.
I can put ”mind” in the same box with ”ego” (another cliche word). The ”ego” uses the thoughts of past and present and fear, to keep us tied to it, to this false self that we call the ”i”. Ego ”uses” what is inside the ”mind-box” to keep it self (the false self, the i) alive by making it look like it is the all the boxes. An entity. That is how i see the mind. There is really no ”mind” :)

[Bananafish]

Wow ... I like the box analogy. :)

Yes, it's perfectly ok to use concepts
as long as you know that they're not
the thing itself.

So now, Tuulikki, do you have anything
you want explore further?

[Tuulikki]

Hi Bananafish :)

I want to explore emotions, open up this subject. Like for example, emotion of nervousness rises when i need to communicate with people face to face. (I have poor social skills). I know there is no ”i”, so who is nervous? ..There is no ”one” nervous. There is only an old believe that there is ”someone” who is nervous. A believe that ”i will say something stupid” and that believe, when believed, will actually then ”make” ”me” say something stupid :) And it is also an old believe that ”i have poor social skills”.

And why is it so hard to break free from all these past believes of ”me”, even now that i don’t really believe there is a ”me”?
I understand how the thoughts of ”me” have been believed once and the ”ego” fed those believes more and more over the years.

..I looked at what i wrote, and see now that i just need to let that emotion or old believe be and feel it. Let the old believe just come and notice that it isn’t anything real, not to believe it. Emotion is real; it is felt, but many times the emotion rises from an old believe and it should be taken as such, look where it came from, and not feed that emotion more, just feel it and let it go.
Noticing those emotions and old believes is actually something that has changed now. Now ”i have a chance”, not to believe them, when before they came and i just bought them and let them be fed even more.
Emotions don’t stop and old believes are still there, vanishing one by one. It’s all about noticing them and letting them go and not getting attached to them! And not trying to resist them either! I guess ”i” opened this up myself quite a bit :)
Is there something else i should look at, about emotions or past believes?
There is a feeling of ”emptiness” and serenity right now about these things :)

[Bananafish]

Your post made me smile. :)

See? Now you are looking at reality as it is.


When you are stuck, that's a chance for investigation.
Anything comes up, and you can look at it yourself. Eyes open ...
the eyes that you have had in the first place.

Put the sticky kind of thoughts on the paper, write all of them down, and see
how they look like. Or you can even do it right on the spot when thoughts are
noticed.


This is a long journey of learning life, and it there will be no end to it.
Honestly, although I no longer seek for anything, I'm still learning a lot every day,
but not from something / someone special like a spiritual practice or a guru.


If you don't mind, would you like to try the final questions
we ask at the end of every conversation? Let me know if anything else comes up
that you want to have a further look.

[Tuulikki]

Hi!

Glad to make you smile :)

Yeah, not expecting this journey to end, or that it’s gonna be all roses either :D

I’m ready for the final questions Bananafish!

[Bananafish]

Hi Tuulikki!

Here are the questions ... take your time, and have fun!


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[Tuulikki]

Hi!

Well, here it goes! :)

1.Is there a separate entity ”self”,”me”,”i” at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?

No, there is not a separate ”i” to be found in any way. Not in the body or in the mind/thoughts. Thoughts happen, labeling is happening, sounds are beeing heard and things seen, feelings are beeing felt, pain in the body is beeing felt, but there is no ”one” to whom those are happening to. They just happen and they are just experienced as such. ”I” was only made of believes. Now, ”I” is only a word for communication.

2.Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of separate self is beeing born, when you believe the thoughts that rise to be true, when you believe what other people are saying about ”you” and things around you, when it is believed that that the ”i” is in control of the things that happen. All this believing starts at very young age, caused by other people, when they start pointing out ”your” separatenes. And once this believe of ”i” has been born, it is very hard to get rid of it, the role becomes the most important thing. This false self, the ego, will do anything to protect it. But the truth can’t be hidden forever :)

3.How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels liberating! Before i started this dialogue, i was so stressed about everything, I took everything so seriously! Now, i don’t take things so seriously anymore :) Nothing really matters that much anymore. I can see now, how i was almost loosing my mind trying to control everything. And now, if those old habits rise up, i see them only as that; old believes, thoughts that aren’t true. One by one i have been seeing them for what they really are. It isn’t easy, there is still that ego haunting, but it feels like just a ghost from the past :)

4. What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

What made me look in the first place, was a quite long process. I have been looking for this,the truth, about twenty years now, i just didn’t know that this was it :) I had gone along with many spiritual things, that finally led me to LU. I read the book, and when it came to the point of ”who is on control”, i was resisting what i read so much, that i stopped looking for awhile, but once i had started, i just couldn’t stop there, and continued the search of the truth by getting my self to this forum. And i really needed guiding to get this far! But when i was looking at those emotions earlier, i really felt that, hey this is it, this is how things are! :) Everything felt from that on so clear and so simple!

5.Describe decision, intention, free will, choise and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

So this was the hardest thing for me to ”aprove” once! It only seems like there is an ”i” who is making decisions, but when looking at it, it ain’t really so. When the ”i” believes, that it is making a decision, it is only based on the thought: ”i am making this decision”. And the decion is made about a thought that came up before that thought. But there is no ”i” who is controlling those thoughts, any thoughts! There is only awarenes of those thoughts. And the thoughts that circle in the mind, are easily believed to be true by the ”i”; because the ”i” doesn’t look for the truth.
So decision, intention, free will, choises and control; they are words made to describe the needs that the ego has, to keep the false self happy, so they seem to be real things, things that ”i” has and can do, but things are just happening, even if the ”i” wants it or not.
No ”one” is in control. There is no ”i” responsible for anything. All is just one big ocean of energy, moving and unfolding. I could come up with theories of how this ”everything” is working, but i don’t really know, and i don’t even have the need to know. All i know, that it ain’t me who decides how it’s gonna be. I don’t know what’s gonna happen next. Really, ”i” can’t deside, control or know, what thought is gonna pop up next to ”my” awarenes, the thought just pops up from somewhere, the universal consciousness or something like that :) So how could i call it my own?
Even this writing right now, this is just happening! Or what my dogs or husband are doing, i can’t control those things, those things are just happening. Things are just heard, seen and felt as they unfold in the now.

6.Anything to add?

I can’t think of anything more to say right now, but just how grateful ”i” am for all of this :)