Seekin truth

[RoseyC]

Hi Wesley,

If it is not coming from one of these, it is thought-content. Is this true?

Yes, It is true.

Is it possible to experience something other than through the senses or as a thought-content?

No, it is not possible.

Let's try an exercise. Find a cup and place it in front of you, with some water or something you can drink. Look at whatever liquid is inside the cup, notice it's color if it has any, the shape of it in the cup, as many details as possible. Now close your eyes and think of the water or whatever liquid is inside it. Is it cold? Hot? What would it feel like touching your lips? How about drinking it, will it be quenching? Imagine yourself drinking it.

There is a cup with dark brown liquid. It is hot coffee It is black and orange. The coffee swishes around in a circle.

Eyes closed there are thoughts about the cup, its color. size, the taste and temperature.

Now open your eyes and take a drink of that liquid. What's the difference between the real water and the water of your thoughts? There is the water of your thoughts and there is the real water (or whichever liquid it is).

When drinking the liquid there is taste, texture, color, sound, temperature. It starts in the mouth and spreads. Holding the object there is warmth. A light reflection off the surface of the liquid. There is smell happening.

Trying to describe the direct experience requires thoughts. The names of the objects, the the ideas of temperature, liquid/solid, etc.

The only direct experience is the touch taste smell sound sight of the liquid. I can experience it but it’s impossible to describe without using thoughts.

Take your hand and cover an object out of sight in the room. Now, how do you know it's there? That there is something behind your hand, is it coming from sensory information or is it from thought? Try and avoid any thought explanations, just look and see how this all works right now

Looking at an object across the room (a chair). It is sensory information. It is direct. When I put my hand up, I do not actually know it is still there. Using thoughts, I can guess that it is probably still there.

Seeing, touching, hearing, tasting, and smelling are direct. If I’m going to talk about something I hear or see I must use thought to communicate. Direct experience and thoughts are different.

Thanks,
Rose

[WesleySPK]

Hi Rosey,

Great answers, thank you. How were these exercises, helpful?

The nervous system was involved in sensing the heat (nerves in hand) and moving the hand. The nerves in the hand registered the burn and the brain sent a signal to move the hand.

So with these experiments in mind, let's revisit this. Did you experience directly the nervous system, or did you feel a sensation in the hand which is very quickly interpreted as 'heat'? Can you directly experience through your senses the nerves in your hand, or the brain, or is it just feeling a sensation, seeing the hand quickly pull away?

What does this experience look like without any thought interpretation? It is okay that you can't describe exactly direct experience without thoughts or language, what's important is that you see the difference for yourself.

Hug,
Wesley

[RoseyC]

Hi Wesley,

Yes! The exercises were very helpful and I think a change has happened. I continued to look at the senses in that way for the rest of the day/night. And it continues somewhat.

Did you experience directly the nervous system, or did you feel a sensation in the hand which is very quickly interpreted as ‘heat’?

No I do not experience the nervous system directly. I felt a sensation and quickly interpreted it.Wow!!

Can you directly experience through your senses the nerves in your hand, or the brain, or is it just feeling a sensation, seeing the hand quickly pull away?

It’s just feeling a sensation.

What does this experience look like without any thought interpretation? It is okay that you can't describe exactly direct experience without thoughts or language, what's important is that you see the difference for yourself.

Without thought interpretation it looks like a person reaching for something and moving the hand away. Yes, I think I see it now. Pretty awesome.

Thanks a bunch!
Rose

[WesleySPK]

Hi Rosey,

Glad to hear it seems a change has happened and the exercises are helping.

Could you write a little about your experience of a separate self now, how things happen as you go about your day? If it feels like there's a 'me' in any way/shape/form that is in control of life. Feel free to share what seems relevant to you.

Hug,
Wesley

[RoseyC]

Hi Wesley,

There’s no separate self anywhere. This knowledge informs everything that happens in a subtle way. The adage “treat others as you would like to be treated” has a greater significance because what I say or do to someone else I say or do to myself. All is one.

There is an effortlessness as things happen. There is no me to be in control. There is freedom in this. I feel optimistic, less worried. Like a weight has been lifted.

There is a strong sense and feeling of gratitude for the people who volunteer to help others see the truth. (This feeling permeates the body and feels pleasant.) How amazing is this? I would love to be part of it at some point.

Thank you, Wesley, for doing this.

Rose

[WesleySPK]

Hi Rosey,

This knowledge informs everything that happens in a subtle way.

Is this knowledge or is it something that's seen or recognized? It's only by actually looking at experience that we see there's no separate self, and that doesn't change as we continue on.

Glad to hear you feel like a weight has been lifted, this all sounds good.

I agree, in fact I just wrote a post on the LU forums about how incredible and effective I see this as. There's always a need for more guides at LU.

It's my pleasure! Rosey, are there any remaining doubts or anything you would like to take a peek at regarding the self?

Hug,
Wesley

[RoseyC]

Hi Wesley,

Is this knowledge or is it something that's seen or recognized?

Seen, recognized. It's always there.

Thanks again,
Rose

[WesleySPK]

Hi Rosey,

Sorry for my late response I've been rather sick lately.

Are there any remaining doubts that you have regarding a separate self? Anything at all?

Hug,
Wesley

[RoseyC]

Hi Wesley,

Sorry you are sick. Hope you feel better soon.

Are there any remaining doubts that you have regarding a separate self? Anything at all?

No, no doubts at all.

Rose

[WesleySPK]

Hi Rosey,

Sorry you are sick. Hope you feel better soon.

Thanks :) I do too.

Okay if there is no doubt, I have some last questions to ask you. Here they are:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Hug,
Wesley

[RoseyC]

Hi Wesley,

I'll have to answer tomorrow. It's a busy day.

Rose

[RoseyC]

Hi Wesley,

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there is no separate self or I anywhere. There never has been.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of the separate self begins at birth. Nearly everything in our environment supports the illusion. From newborn to adulthood we are conditioned and rewarded for behaviors that support the illusion. It is easy to fall in line with the idea of a separate self because everyone we know appears to “know” that the self is separate.

Now there is no separate self. I know this without doubt. Nothing has changed in any dramatic way. Day-to-day is about the same as far as what goes on. I see the illusion.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days

It feels great. There is a sense of relief. All the “mistakes” no longer seem important. Flaws and irritations don’t seem important either. Likewise, fame and “greatness” seem like a joke. There is an optimistic anticipation that was not here before.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Wesley, when you said that I hadn’t answered your questions and restated them as well as clarified “direct experience” is when I saw it. The thought was, “Can it really be that simple?” I did the suggested exercises and discovered that, yes, it is that simple. You understood that I was making it all too complicated and your questions helped me let go of that.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

There are no decisions. There is no self to decide.
Thoughts happen. The body acts.
Same with intention. There is no one to intend.
Again, thoughts happen. The body acts.
Free will does not exist. There is no one to have free will.
Things just happen. Thoughts happen.
There is no one to choose and no one to be in control.

The above things appear to be true because thoughts say they are. Thoughts just happen but our brains interpret it as originating with us as an individual, when really there is no one to think.Thoughts appear.

There is no one to be responsible. Things just happen. Driving is an example. "I" leave the house and arrive at the destination. Thoughts may happen on the way. No one drove the car. No one decided which route to take. No one controlled the trip and no one is responsible for the event.

6) Anything to add?

Yes, thank you very much. It is such a gift to have this forum and people volunteering to help the next person see. I am forever grateful.

Best wishes to you,
Rose

[WesleySPK]

Hi Rose,

Thanks very much for your reply. Lovely answers :).

Wesley, when you said that I hadn’t answered your questions and restated them as well as clarified “direct experience” is when I saw it. The thought was, “Can it really be that simple?” I did the suggested exercises and discovered that, yes, it is that simple. You understood that I was making it all too complicated and your questions helped me let go of that.

Very interesting to read this! And good to know!

And you're very welcome, it's absolutely my pleasure :).

Please be patient as I will be getting in touch with you soon within the next few days.