Hello, ready to start looking.

[Patanjali]

I've had a nagging feeling for a while that this is what I should be doing.
I intellectually understand that the self is only active in my thoughts, its not a thing that does, but a thing about which thoughts write stories.
I still feel that my 'self' is anchored to my first person perspective.

Can someone help me see this through?

[Eloratea]

When you say „my self“, then your self must not be same as you?
What is self? What is you?
Is there two of you, or only one, or no one? Is there anything real behind those words?
Compare with sayings like“ my computer“…

There is similar process going on with labeling things and life itself with labels like „me“, „mine“…connecting perceptions with one particular body. Than the thoughts are believed and everything becomes personal and confused.
But look back at the pure facts of life, pure perception.
Look freshly and honestly into your own experience in this very moment.
Is there real, solid, separate self?

Warm regards.

[Patanjali]

Hi Eloratea, thanks for replying.

In answer to your question, is there a real, solid, separate self in my perception of this moment;
no there isn't, there is only perception. It seems like there is no place for the self in the present moment, no role for it to play.

But I still feel ownership of this perception.

[Eloratea]

It seems like there is no place for the self in the present moment, no role for it to play.

Was there any time when there was for role for the self?
Look in your life, was there ever self, or it was only in thoughts?

But I still feel ownership of this perception.

Do you feel or there is a feeling?
Can you describe that feeling to see what it really is?

Is there you doing the seeing right now, or it is just seeing?
Are you doing the hearing or breathing? Are you sitting or the body is siting?
Pay attention on the processes going on right now.
Look deeply into the experience, do not think, so you see it as it is before the conceptualization begins.Pure perceptions, sensations, awareness.

[Patanjali]

So, there are happenings; breathing, eyes open, arm lifts, and then thought, 'I lift my arm'. Attention settles on each, and habitually the thought of 'mine' arises.

In the past, when I thought there was a me, there was a story of Patanjali in my mind, and then attention settled on it, in the same way that when there is pain in a joint the attention goes there. So the thought was 'this is my pain'.

I can see that when the attention goes to the feeling of hunger the attention then goes to the thought 'I am hungry', so the hunger seems to be mine, rather than a process of the body.

But I find I'm still identifying with these thoughts. Do I need to look harder?

[Eloratea]

Look what is behind this label "I".
Can there be found any entity in the center of all these identifications?
Do the thoughts always point to the real, existent?

Yes, continued looking into experience is necessary to see the mechanism of labeling and identifications; Without forcing anything. Simple looking into what already is.

Regards!

[Patanjali]

I, me, mine, don't seem to refer to anything. I felt around this body for the places where I felt I was, and it was just sensation.

But there is still a feeling of being in control. A feeling of a looker looking, deciding where to look, deciding what to feel.

I still feel there is a center to this perception, so I looked at that and I can't find a center, more a range of sensations.

But I still feel like I am the pilot sitting inside my skull, collecting sensations, directing perception.

[Patanjali]

But I still feel like I am the pilot sitting inside my skull, collecting sensations, directing perception.

Or rather, there is the feeling of being the pilot.

I'm going to look at this.

[Eloratea]

Or rather, there is the feeling of being the pilot.
I'm going to look at this.

Good :) Keep looking in right direction.

Sens of self may stay after initial seeing that there is no one where we supposed one to be. Long time belief may require some time and continued looking to dissolve.

Look into actual experience how it is actually seamless, without clear border between you and rest of the experience. Only conditioned way of thinking may make it felt divided.

Pay attention is there any possibility to control thoughts, to predict next one, to stop them? Is there any evidence of some entity, agency external to experience here and now controlling it? Is there a need for it?
Or we can let go of such thoughts and rest safely in this unitary life flow.

[Patanjali]

I see the seamlessness, there is no divide. Its all perception.

Pay attention is there any possibility to control thoughts, to predict next one, to stop them? Is there any evidence of some entity, agency external to experience here and now controlling it? Is there a need for it?

No to all points. Thoughts do their own thing. Even when attention isn't resting on them there is still chatter. There are emotions that are perceived, and they are used to define the idea of me. Feelings of possessiveness, frustration, anger, hurt, justification. 'I' get caught up in them, but if I don't get too attached I can see they often hinge on a story of self-definition.
There feels like there is a controller, 'I', but it's really a combination of attention and sensation.

Or we can let go of such thoughts and rest safely in this unitary life flow.

There are things I don't want to let go of, but at the same time they cause me pain and so I do want to let go. But this is all self-definition. Laughter is pushing up, it seems ridiculous.

[Eloratea]

There are things I don't want to let go of, but at the same time they cause me pain and so I do want to let go. But this is all self-definition. Laughter is pushing up, it seems ridiculous.

Stay with this. Have a deep look, what is going on.
It is like ouroboros eating its own tail.
Is there anyone in control? Anything in the center of the ouroboros?
Who doesn't want to let go? May it be just inertia of the thought-emotional pattern defending illusion of self; And suffering signaling confused perception?
For how long can this illusion be protected if there is an honest look?

[Patanjali]

I look at these things, and the feeling just goes. They are old lines of thought activating.
If I look for who doesn't want to let go I find nothing, the feeling hangs there for a while and then goes, maybe returns later.

I'm still mistaking perception for 'I'.

It feels like there is something at the center, but its really just a sensation, tension in my chest, or pressure in my head, or sight itself.

I feel like I'm not looking hard enough, but I know this is a thought, is it worth anything?

I feel like I already half know it, but that's a thought too.

[Patanjali]

I can't turn off the witnessing. I can't 'close my eyes'.

I feel like the lack of 'I' is sinking in. The sensation of 'I' is witnessed, but can't control the witnessing. This feels significant.

[Eloratea]

I look at these things, and the feeling just goes. They are old lines of thought activating.
If I look for who doesn't want to let go I find nothing, the feeling hangs there for a while and then goes, maybe returns later.

Yes, nature of the feelings is to leave when felt and seen through without thoughts telling the story about it. Inherent emptiness seems to be the nature of all appearances.

I'm still mistaking perception for 'I'.
It feels like there is something at the center, but its really just a sensation, tension in my chest, or pressure in my head, or sight itself.

Yes, that's all that is.

I feel like I'm not looking hard enough, but I know this is a thought, is it worth anything?
I feel like I already half know it, but that's a thought too.

Yes, thoughts. It is ok. They like to interpret the experience :) Not such a big deal when you know them for what they are.
Keep looking without forcing.
Take some walk outside when possible; it helps for this to sink in. In a broader environment; walking with no special goal, just observing, perceiving. Feeling effortlessness of life.

I can't turn off the witnessing. I can't 'close my eyes'.

I feel like the lack of 'I' is sinking in. The sensation of 'I' is witnessed, but can't control the witnessing. This feels significant.

Yes, awareness watching awareness. Seeing „I“ for what it is. Nothing substantial...

Warm regards.

[Patanjali]

Feelings of doubt keep popping up, 'I should be seeing the gate', 'I should be enlightened by now', 'I need to try harder'.

There is also a feeling of reluctance to look, laziness, there's a feeling like I want to be pushed, I want someone else to do the work for me. I want to get this over with so I can do other things.

I find myself on the verge of laughter at how circular this is, and then I consider where the laughter comes from, and it just comes out of no where.