The fear of losing the illusory self

[blizzified]

There are just sensations, just feelings, just thoughts. The "I" is just one big thought layered on top. It consistently surfaces repeatedly. It is just another thought. Apart from these, there is Knowing. Knowing sees the "I" thought, it sees there is also nothing behind the "I", it also sees the sensations, feelings and thoughts.

Knowing is.. beyond concept, illuminating. Beyond light and dark, beyond any 'self', beyond any verbal expression. The moment a thought arises, Knowing is unobscured and has always been there.

[Matthew]

Beautiful.


How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

[blizzified]

How does it feel to see this?

To be honest, I'm quite surprised at it, but not in any big way, just like an "oh".

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

I kept thinking that the Knowing was an "I", and that created a "I vs thoughts" or "I vs sensations" or "I vs karma". But the problem is that "I", "thoughts", "sensations", "thoughts" related to karma, are all like bubbles with no real substantial reality. Now Knowing is Knowing, "I" is "I", "thoughts" are "thoughts", "sensations" are "sensations" and "feelings" are "feelings".

Even the thought of "being a Big Self" is itself the problem. Just another thought. The "I" was never the center of anything, just a thought. So how can there ever be a "small self"? If anything, just the "Big Self" by which all of these things - knowing, doing, feeling, sensing, cognizing - they were just naturally there, there was never any "I" in any of them. The "I" is just another grain of sand, just a sound.

This question comes back to mind:

When this body and mind goes to sleep, the five senses no longer give rise to sensations. The Knowing is there. But why is it that there is unawareness to the point where it seem as if the Knowing disappeared, covered by a veil of darkness? If the realization is real, this Knowing should be clearly present even in sleep, shouldn't it? Also, this Knowing should be able to be absolutely free of afflictions, so why do afflictions continue to arise, such as this "I" that keeps popping out at every thought?

How come Knowing doesn't know dreams, or whatever happens in sleep? My understanding is that sleep itself is one big "thought". But how come Knowing doesn't see this "thought"?

[Matthew]

How come Knowing doesn't know dreams, or whatever happens in sleep? My understanding is that sleep itself is one big "thought". But how come Knowing doesn't see this "thought"?

Ok, well...
Experience in this very moment is labelled "day time(dream) experience" most likely.
And there is experience labelled "night dream experience".

Is experience labelled "day time" and "night dream" fundametally different?
Or is it just thought giving experience different "prime" labels.

Is there more difference to it than one being more "blurry", the other one being "crisper"?
Where do these ideas come from. Do they inherently reside in experience, or is it thought commenting on it?

Have a thorough look! It's quite astounding.



And after that, have a look at this:

How come Knowing doesn't know dreams

Isn't also a night dream story clearly known?

But how come Knowing doesn't see this "thought"

Is knowing really absent during a story labelled "night dream"?

Is it EVER absent?

Or is it there in the same way as right now. Apparently in the background. Apparently unnoticed.

[blizzified]

I'll have a look and reply soon. :)

[blizzified]

Is experience labelled "day time" and "night dream" fundametally different?
Or is it just thought giving experience different "prime" labels.

Yes I understand that, experience are given "labels".

Is there more difference to it than one being more "blurry", the other one being "crisper"?
Where do these ideas come from. Do they inherently reside in experience, or is it thought commenting on it?

In "waking reality", the "ideas" of being "unconscious" arise. Thought is commenting on it.

Isn't also a night dream story clearly known?

That's the problem... If there is no awareness of a dream... How is it known? For example, scientists put an electrode to the brain and say we make about three to five dreams but forget it.

Is knowing really absent during a story labelled "night dream"?

Is it EVER absent?

Or is it there in the same way as right now. Apparently in the background. Apparently unnoticed.

Could it be that "I've" confused 'consciousness' as the Awareness? That to be 'awake' is awareness? Then how come it is possible to become lucid in the dream-state, and then to experience it with that "awakeness"?

I kind of understand what you mean... in the background... kind of 'behind' the consciousness. I get it, but don't get it... I need a push.

[Matthew]

Could it be that "I've" confused 'consciousness' as the Awareness?

Yeah, let us find common terms.

The terms awareness and consciousness point to the same. It's just that "awareness" is a nicer word.
Awareness is the knowing.
The knowing in any circumstance.

"How do you do?"
"I'm doing great!"
"Are you knowing this?"
"Yes! Yes, I'm knowing this."

"What is going on?"
"There are thoughts appearing."
"Are you knowing this?"
"Yes, I'm knowing this."

"How are you?"
"Terrible! I'm dying!"
"Are you knowing this?"
"Yes, I'm knowing this".


You are aware of experience.
Experience can only be, when there is awareness of experience.

These apparent two are one.
Awareness/Knowing and Experience/Known.
What some call the "Knowingknown". Or just: "THIS"

For example, scientists put an electrode to the brain and say we make about three to five dreams but forget it

So can this be verified in actual experience?
Or was that just learned in the past?
This is a very crucial point at any time.
We only ever look at actual experience. Not assumptions. Not the learned. Not beliefs.

Then how come it is possible to become lucid in the dream-state, and then to experience it with that "awakeness"?

This goes way beyond the investigation of the belief in a separate self. Such explorations usually only take place in the post-gate-forums. Which are not yet visible for you.
We can have a look at it. But for looking deeply into such things, there are better places.

Could it be that "I've" confused 'consciousness' as the Awareness? That to be 'awake' is awareness?

What is "awake".

to become lucid in the dream-state

What is "lucid".

Let's say there is a night dream. And there is no notion of "this is just a dream".
In the same way right now:
There is an investigation. And there is no notion of "all this is just a story going on".

Is the recognition of "this is just a dream" something beyond or outside of the dream?
Or is "this is just a dream" not only one other aspect WITHIN the dream.

Is the recognition of "this is just a story about an investigation going on" something beyond or outside of the story?
Or is "this is just a story" not only one other aspect WITHIN the story.

I get it, but don't get it... I need a push.

That's in fact a great place to be.
Here an old Zen poem:

You cannot catch hold of it, nor can you get rid of it.
In not being able to get it, you get it.
When you speak, it is silent.
When you are silent, it speaks.

[blizzified]

These apparent two are one.
Awareness/Knowing and Experience/Known.
What some call the "Knowingknown". Or just: "THIS"

This makes sense!!! Would it be right to say that when there is no experience, there is no knowing? Would that be "Nibbana" - extinguishment?

So can this be verified in actual experience?
Or was that just learned in the past?
This is a very crucial point at any time.
We only ever look at actual experience. Not assumptions. Not the learned. Not beliefs.

You are right, just "memory".

This goes way beyond the investigation of the belief in a separate self. Such explorations usually only take place in the post-gate-forums. Which are not yet visible for you. We can have a look at it. But for looking deeply into such things, there are better places.

Is there such a place? That would be wonderful.

What is "awake".

Meaning Knowing.

What is "lucid".

Meaning Knowing.

Is the recognition of "this is just a dream" something beyond or outside of the dream?
Or is "this is just a dream" not only one other aspect WITHIN the dream.

Outside of the dream, as Knowing, the words "this is just a dream" is a thought.

Is the recognition of "this is just a story about an investigation going on" something beyond or outside of the story?
Or is "this is just a story" not only one other aspect WITHIN the story.

Outside of the dream, as Knowing, the words "this is just a story" is a thought.

That's in fact a great place to be.
Here an old Zen poem:

You cannot catch hold of it, nor can you get rid of it.
In not being able to get it, you get it.
When you speak, it is silent.
When you are silent, it speaks.

It's like... ineffable, unconceivable, but yet the effect/function is Knowing.

[Matthew]

Is there such a place? That would be wonderful.

Yes, there is such a place. And I see that you want to go all the way.

This will be about seeing through ALL beliefs. Not only the little and innocent error about there being a separate self.
And then to see what is left here when all beliefs are gone.
To see where this is going:

Would it be right to say that when there is no experience, there is no knowing?

Is there EVER no knowing?
When would that be?
How do you know that "There was no knowing"?

Outside of the dream, as Knowing, the words "this is just a dream" is a thought.

Is there an "outside" of this?
Is there anything outside of this scene right now?
How do you know about that. Is that actual experience? Or an assumption.

Would that be "Nibbana" - extinguishment?

What you are looking for is EXACTLY HERE NOW. And ONLY HERE NOW.
That's why we only look at actual experience, what is here now.


To create a good soil for this inquiry, let us be crystal clear about the belief in separate self.
Is there anything unclear about the "I", "me", "self", "personality"?
Was that ever more than an idea?
Did this "ego" ever exist outside of a thought story?

[blizzified]

Is there EVER no knowing?
When would that be?
How do you know that "There was no knowing"?

That's true, there is always knowing. I noticed that - why did I even know there was no dream, for example? I knew- but my experience was blackness, how long - I didn't know - but it was just pure blackness, lack of experience. The knowing never ceased for an instant.

Is there EVER no knowing?
When would that be?
How do you know that "There was no knowing"?

If there is no knowing, I'd never know there was no knowing. But I knew that there was 'blackness' and lack of experience, so the knowing must have continued unceasingly.

Is there an "outside" of this?
Is there anything outside of this scene right now?
How do you know about that. Is that actual experience? Or an assumption.

Assumption.

To create a good soil for this inquiry, let us be crystal clear about the belief in separate self.
Is there anything unclear about the "I", "me", "self", "personality"?
Was that ever more than an idea?
Did this "ego" ever exist outside of a thought story?

They are all "thoughts".

Ego is just "thought".

The knowing is the only constant.

[Matthew]

How do you know that "There was no knowing"?

Another way of replying to this question could be:
The only thing, which tells a story about "non-knowing" is thought.
Only thought tells a story about "There was sleep, there was no knowing".
In actual experience, the knowing is never absent. It does not cease and it will not cease.
This can become even clearer when looking at the belief in time.

To create a good soil for this inquiry, let us be crystal clear about the belief in separate self.
Is there anything unclear about the "I", "me", "self", "personality"?
Was that ever more than an idea?
Did this "ego" ever exist outside of a thought story?

They are all "thoughts".

Ego is just "thought".

The knowing is the only constant.

When this is crystal clear, then I would like to conclude this conversation in "The Gate" by posing the final questions.
Is that okay with you?

[blizzified]

Only thought tells a story about "There was sleep, there was no knowing".

This seems clear now.

When this is crystal clear, then I would like to conclude this conversation in "The Gate" by posing the final questions.
Is that okay with you?

That would be great. :)

[Matthew]

You had answered some of these questions already during the conversation.
Please take your time and answer them all elaborately. It is very interesting for us.



1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Please explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Please describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[blizzified]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Just as thoughts! Haha it's quite amusing, because even this amusement is a "thought". Well, there are thoughts, but there was never a solid "I", "me" or "self" to be found at all - just a sound!

2) Please explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

When I say the word "I", there is only a floating sound of "I". There are just thoughts, feelings and sensations. But stories, thoughts about an "I" rise up, saying things like this is me, that is me, etc. But the thoughts themselves are all 'disconnected', just independently rising, even the stories themselves are not real.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It was just surprise by surprise by surprise. When I started, there was a "subject" that looked out into the word. This subject was erroneously "packaged" with sensations, thoughts and feelings associated with a self. Therefore, there was a "fear of losing this self". But the problem was, this self never even existed, so how can there even be a fear of losing it? It was pure nonsense, just thoughts and stories arising.

Along the way, the "I" started thinking that it understood. But then they were just more stories, more thoughts. I then realized that bare, naked Knowing present.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Actually, I'm not not even that sure. It was bit by bit. But I think the one with the most shock to the "I" thought was calling it an "E", "O" or "U". Just metaphorically speaking, because "thoughts" don't react to other "thoughts", they independently surface and fall away.

5) Please describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

True Free Will comes spontaneously from emptiness. I'm not sure what to call it - Intuition? Guided action? Just metaphors, but it's as if actions spontaneously rise from emptiness as well. Knowing is just Witnessing.

If I could use a metaphor, it was like Nature was this Big Soul, and it was just doing whatever it wanted, and then it used little windows to watch all the actions it took, a little like the Christian phrase: "God initiates His works through men." Of course, it's just a metaphor, God is this vast emptiness, and spontaneously from this cognizant, luminous emptiness of God, it springs forth all these actions, these phenomena, etc - while One with the emptiness/Father, the Knowing watches it all. I have a problem with expressing this, I'm not sure if it came out the right way.

6) Anything to add?

I'm so surprised I never saw it. It was a very subtle shift of perception, but then again you could argue there wasn't any perception change since there was Knowing all along. All this linguistic stuff is confusing me hahaha.

[Matthew]

Wow. Thanks for these beautiful answers.
I'll be in touch soon again.
Take care!