Understanding clearly

[forgetmenot]

Please go back and read what I wrote...that they are examples. You also don't sit with stuff...you immediately replied and haven't even allowed anything to filter in so you can even contemplate it. As you said, you hadn't even touched on self-beliefs...so I was helping you to find them. You have no idea how your son may or may not feel. That is your own projection onto him to how he is feeling going by your own feelings of being rejected, which are playing out as a story about your son.
Whether or not it pertains to my example or not....everyone has felt rejected in their childhood and onwards, and it is a pattern that needs to be seen and dealt with. My example is just an example. Up to you what you do with it. As I said, going to those depths is not something that happens in guiding.

What is the AE of mother?
What is the AE of son?
What is the AE of happiness?
What is the AE of rejection?

Kay

[forgetmenot]

The story about your son is just a story? Is it even happening in this moment? The thought story is happening in this moment, where is the evidence that it actually ever happened?

Even if the story is SEEMS to be playing out in 'real' time now, how is it known that your son is feeling anything? If there is no separate self called "me", then can there be others who have separate self? All that is actually appearing is colour labelled as 'son' and 'sons friend", colour labelled 'me', sound (voices), and thoughts about a "me feeling sad for a son". Where in AE can any of this be found?

Love, Kay

[Ermintrude]

Dear Kay,

Please go back and read what I wrote...that they are examples. You also don't sit with stuff...you immediately replied and haven't even allowed anything to filter in so you can even contemplate it.

Ok, thanks for pulling me up on that. I will misunderstand you sometimes and do things wrong, so thank you for pointing it out to me. I'm here to learn.

How is it known that the face is looking angry?

I can feel what the face is doing, like if the eyebrows are drawn together and down, or the lips are thinned [feeling sensation] Thought recognises that as an angry pattern [thought]

Can you see your face?

Unless looking in a mirror, only a bit of the nose.

Or is it just an idea appearing that your face is appearing angry?

Yes, it's a thought, recognition of feeling sensation.

How is it known that you have a head? Can you see your head?

AE of the head is mostly feeling sensation right now, although I can see a bit of the nose.

What is the AE of these type written words?

visual sensation and thought

What is the AE of verbal words?

sound and thought (and sometimes visual if I can see the person's face/mouth)

What is the AE of thought?

thought

 You have no idea how your son may or may not feel. That is your own projection onto him to how he is feeling going by your own feelings of being rejected, which are playing out as a story about your son. 

Yes, exactly

What is the AE of mother?

thought, just a label

What is the AE of son?

thought, just a label

What is the AE of happiness?

Hmm, interesting! Thought, I suppose, since it's not a physical sensation, but not verbal thought. Joy, ease, lightness, freedom? Labels for an experience that is hard to capture. Maybe an absence of some kinds of experience, like having a heavy weight taken off?

What is the AE of rejection?

Thoughts - about what happened, about why, about what you're going to do now - and feeling sensation - hollow in the pit of the stomach, burning eyes etc.

The story about your son is just a story? Is it even happening in this moment?

Nope. It's just a memory [thought].

The thought story is happening in this moment, where is the evidence that it actually ever happened?

There's no evidence. The thought story isn't even happening right now. I could replay it, but that's just a story.

Even if the story is SEEMS to be playing out in 'real' time now, how is it known that your son is feeling anything? If there is no separate self called "me", then can there be others who have separate self? All that is actually appearing is colour labelled as 'son' and 'sons friend", colour labelled 'me', sound (voices), and thoughts about a "me feeling sad for a son". Where in AE can any of this be found?

It's just a memory/story [thought].

Are you asking how it felt at the time? Then yes, at the time there was visual sensation, sound, thoughts labelling what was happening, feeling sensation and thoughts of sadness/upset.

None of those experiences are present now – right now there is visual sensation (kitchen, screen) sound (traffic) thoughts (about what I'm typing) feeling (stiff back, fingers tapping) taste (chocolate) smell (nothing special) – so the events of the past are not here right now.

Ermintrude x

[forgetmenot]

Hello E,

I want you to take your time when doing exercises and when answering questions. Please take a couple of days to really read this post (and any post I send) and do the exercises several times until you really see what I am pointing at. You are not actually LOOKING, you are using thoughts to answer. I want you to start LOOKING. Just because you think you know that the AE of ‘breeze on the skin’ is sensation, it is not enough to think it….you have to actually LOOK each and every time. It is the continual LOOKING and the seeing that it is actually sensation that brings about the realisations that lead to the realisation of there being no separate self. Using thought will not bring the realisation. Having and intellectual understanding is not have the realisation. Just like having the intellectual understanding on how to drive a car does not mean you can drive a car.

Ok, thanks for pulling me up on that. I will misunderstand you sometimes and do things wrong, so thank you for pointing it out to me. I'm here to learn.

No, you are not here to learn, you are here to LOOK.

How is it known that the face is looking angry?

I can feel what the face is doing, like if the eyebrows are drawn together and down, or the lips are thinned [feeling sensation] Thought recognises that as an angry pattern [thought]

So I want you to LOOK at this with AE because you are not LOOKING, you are just describing/answering via thoughts. Because you think you know that the breakdown is A, B, C, you are not LOOKING, you are just using preconceived answeres and ideas. I want you to start to LOOK instead of thinking you already know what the answer is.

I want you to “draw the eyebrows together and down” and tell me what the actual experience is. Yes, there is sensation, but what else? I don’t want you to use thought and say, it is only a thought. I want you to LOOK very carefully and tell me how it is known they are eyebrows on a face that are drawing down and together. We know that there is sensation and thought…but what else?

Can you see your face?

Unless looking in a mirror, only a bit of the nose.

See, no LOOKING happened here! You just jumped to what you think you know. Go look in a mirror. What is the actual experience?

And what is the AE of “a bit of the nose”?

How is it known that you have a head? Can you see your head?

AE of the head is mostly feeling sensation right now, although I can see a bit of the nose.

The AE of the head is THOUGHT. The sensations are not a ‘head’. It is an appearing thought that describes the sensation as a "head". Can you see this?

What is the AE of these type written words?

visual sensation and thought

There is no such thing as “visual sensation”. It is a belief that both 'visual sight' and 'mental images' are coming from the eyes, because when it's investigated the attention automatically goes to the sensation 'of the eyes', and at the same time the image 'of the eyes' appear with it.

So another SENSE of self is linked to the sensation 'of the eyes'.

What are the eyes in the actual experience?
A sensation + a mental image, right?

Can sight come from a sensation?
Can sight come from an image (of the eyes)?

Can a 'mental image' come from a sensation?
Can a 'mental image' come from another mental image (of the eyes)?

What is the AE of happiness?

Hmm, interesting! Thought, I suppose, since it's not a physical sensation, but not verbal thought. Joy, ease, lightness, freedom? Labels for an experience that is hard to capture. Maybe an absence of some kinds of experience, like having a heavy weight taken off?

I don’t want you to SUPPOSE, I want you to LOOK. What is the AE of happiness?

What is the AE of rejection?

Thoughts - about what happened, about why, about what you're going to do now - and feeling sensation - hollow in the pit of the stomach, burning eyes etc.

More story. I want you to LOOK and tell me what the AE of rejection is.
Where is AE is "hollow in the pit of the stomach, burning eyes etc."

The story about your son is just a story? Is it even happening in this moment?

Nope. It's just a memory [thought].

No such thing as ‘memory’. Where exactly are these so called ‘memories’ stored? Describe the location in precise detail and tell me how you go about retrieving these ‘memory’ thoughts?

When are those thoughts actually appearing?

The thought story is happening in this moment, where is the evidence that it actually ever happened?

There's no evidence. The thought story isn't even happening right now. I could replay it, but that's just a story.

The thought story is appearing NOW, because that is what is being discussed, so how can the thought story NOT be appearing NOW? Whenever that story appears, is it not appearing NOW? The thought story ABOUT your son is appearing NOW, where is the actual evidence it ever happened?

Are you asking how it felt at the time? Then yes, at the time there was visual sensation, sound, thoughts labelling what was happening, feeling sensation and thoughts of sadness/upset.

There is no such thing as time. There is no past, present or future. There is only ever NOW.
If the sensations that are labelled as being 'upset/sad/angry' are not appearing NOW, then how can they be known?

Love, Kay

[Ermintrude]

Dear Kay,

You are not actually LOOKING, you are using thoughts to answer. I want you to start LOOKING. Just because you think you know that the AE of ‘breeze on the skin’ is sensation, it is not enough to think it….you have to actually LOOK each and every time.

At first when I read this, I was miffed that you seemed to think I wasn't doing the exercises, just making up the answers. “I did do them! I looked!” I thought.

But I've come to realise that I wasn't bringing much curiosity to the process; I was rather going through the motions. To be honest, I feel worn out. At the moment, I find it difficult to care what a self is or whether I have one or not. It's not a great frame of mind in which to investigate.

I'd like to take a break for at least a couple of weeks, maybe longer. I could do with time back for the rest of my life and other practice at the moment.

You don't have to keep a slot free for me – I expect lots of people would like your guidance. But when I return, I'll let you know and if you have space, maybe we could continue the process. Thank you for your kindness and help so far.

Love,

Ermintrude x

[forgetmenot]

Hello E,

But I've come to realise that I wasn't bringing much curiosity to the process; I was rather going through the motions. To be honest, I feel worn out. At the moment, I find it difficult to care what a self is or whether I have one or not. It's not a great frame of mind in which to investigate.

Yes, you were just going through the motions and that is not the frame of mind to do this with. You came to LU on other people's say so and not because you had a desire to do so and that never works. This exploration needs that burning desire to get to the end and have the realisation, without it the desire to LOOK just isn't really there and the guiding falls away.

I wish you the best.

Love, Kay