Understanding clearly

[Douglita]

Ok great. Is there is anything else you would still like to investigate?

If not I'd be happy to pose some questions at this point which can help clarify whether this dialogue is complete. Usually some other guides also look in at your answers, in case anything was missed out en route.

Let me know re the question in blue and - if that answer is in the negative -how you'd feel about answering a few more as I have suggested. :-)

Maria x

[Ermintrude]

I can’t think of anything else - yes, please do ask your questions.

Ermintrude x

[Douglita]

Hi Ermintrude,

Ok here they are.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Maria x

[Ermintrude]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now

The illusion: I see, I think, I decide: a mini person is in my head who is in charge, perceives, thinks etc.

The reality: lots of processes, seeing, thinking and deciding, none of which is a whole “self”. Awareness can’t see the processes that make thoughts arise; thoughts don’t make decisions happen etc.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I don’t think anything has changed during our conversation, except that I understand what you mean by certain words better, and I’ve struggled to express my own understanding in words

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience

Well... “decision, intention, choice and control” all happen, it’s just that there’s no separate entity in charge. There’s no separate self deciding, intending, choosing etc. In daily life there is choosing a cup, controlling hands to pick it up. There might be an intention to carry it, but then accidentally drop it instead.

“Free will” never made much sense to me anyway.

What are you responsible for?

You’ve been asking me to answer from direct experience. “Responsible” is not something I can experience directly. It’s a useful concept for thinking about ethical behaviour, not a part of reality.

It’s a big subject. I suppose I might think about intentions behind and consequences of actions when considering responsibility.

[Douglita]

Hi Ermintrude,

Happy new year!

Two related questions from someone: They noted that emotions were not explored in our dialogue and ask:
What did you mean when you said you don't have the full emotional turning about (in your intro)?
and:
What were you hoping to achieve with the emotional side of seeing?

Much love,

Maria

[Ermintrude]

What did you mean when you said you don't have the full emotional turning about (in your intro)?

Someone else told me this! It’s not my words. So I don’t really know what it means and I was hoping you might help.

What were you hoping to achieve with the emotional side of seeing?

I have no idea! That’s why I’m here.

[Douglita]

Hi Ermintrude,

Someone else told me this! It’s not my words. So I don’t really know what it means and I was hoping you might help.

Ok, I can try :-). We had a chat by private message on this theme a while back and you mentioned that when you have to write answers to written questions you can feel stress that means you control emotions in order to think and write more clearly. So as you continue here with the dialogue, whenever you notice that stress arise, please look with kindness directly at that - all the associated sensations. Is there a fear or expectation there? Something that is being protected? If you notice any stress, try to take a peek 'behind' it and tell me what you find.

So from our pm exchange, my sense is more that there is a habit of holding to concepts, which is getting in the way of experiencing and expressing direct experience as well as any emotions that arise. What you 'see clearly' via DE is not anything to do with the 'understanding' you (may think you) have or can 'gain' by way of thinking things through.
Thinking things through (however 'clearly' ) isn't the way to crack this. The thinking mind cannot 'get' this at all - ('YOU" cannot understand) the mind is a labelling machine and seeks to understand by throwing up more and more ideas in an attempt to pin everything down. You saw earlier thoughts cannot 'do' anything except go "Blah, blah, blah" We use concepts to use language and for many aspects of everyday life (so they're unavoidable - nothing bad or wrong about them!) but the concepts used in direct pointing are only for pointing 'back' to the direct experience.


Here is a little exercise you might have encountered before about the mind's love of labelling.

Write down what you are experiencing right now using the words 'I' and 'me'. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of here now. Like this: I am lying in bed. I am hearing rain. I am typing these words. Do this for 10 minutes. Watch the body; what physical sensations are happening?

Then for the NEXT 10 minutes write what you are experiencing WITHOUT the words 'I' and 'me'. Just describe the experience as it is happening in the moment, using verbs: Waiting for next thought, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing rain. Again watch what is happening in the body. Now compare these two ways to label experience. What do you notice? Is there any difference in terms of sensations/emotional experience between the two ways of describing and thereby experiencing?


Another one:
With eyes closed … Going by your own, present experience, not by memory, hearsay or imagination, how big are you? What shape are you? Could you be any size or shape? Do you have boundaries? Is there a place where you stop and the world begins? Or is there nothing dividing you from the world?

Sit in a chair and bring awareness to all the contact points your body has with the chair and the floor. Feel the sense of pressure in your feet, move up to the pressure in the backside and the back. Close your eyes and focus just on the raw experience – ignore the ‘inner picture’ that has constructed the experience as ‘my body sitting in a chair’. Can you feel where the body ends and floor/chair begins or is the experience itself seamless? Without using thought – before thought intervenes – what is the nature of the experience? Where is the experience taking place? What are its qualities? Is there a ‘centre’ to this experience? Is there a ‘thing’ separate from the sensations that the experience is ‘happening to’? When thought tries to intervene, don’t follow it, allow awareness to remain in the raw experience.


Tell me how these go!

Love,

Maria

[Ermintrude]

Dear Maria,

I'm not sure if I can go on with this. I really appreciate your kindness, but we seem to be going in circles.

I don't think you have asked me about my emotions on this thread before. In any case, at the moment, the emotions are frustration and sadness. Tears are falling. Yes, it is painful for me to be vulnerable like this, especially in a public thread.

Yes, there was a hope that maybe there would be progress towards either seeing something I don't see, or confirming I do see. Or even confirming that I don't. That doesn't seem to be happening. So I do feel sad and disappointed. I don't feel we are understanding each other, but I don't know how to change that, I'm afraid. It may be best just to accept that this method isn't working in my case even though it helps many people.

So from our pm exchange, my sense is more that there is a habit of holding to concepts, which is getting in the way of experiencing and expressing direct experience as well as any emotions that arise.

Are emotions not just concepts and body sensations? What's so special about emotion?

Direct experience seems clear to me – but it's just experience. I don't experience it in words and concepts, obviously. I've got to translate it into words when I write to you. So I can't express my experience directly. Clearly I'm expressing it in some way which makes you think that I don't have experience (?) or can't tell the difference between thought and experience.

I feel sad that it seems like communication isn't working. I don't know how to fix it. But I'm not sure that trying more exercises is going to help unless we somehow sort that out. I also feel that this method is too conceptual for me – so something is going wrong.

Write down what you are experiencing right now using the words 'I' and 'me' … [and again] WITHOUT the words 'I' and 'me'

My actual experience of doing this is:
I have an experience, like hearing a noise. Then I try to identify it, put it in words and remember whether you asked me to say “I” or not. Then I type either “I am hearing traffic noise” or “hearing traffic noise”. And repeat. The “I” part isn't in my experience. The original experience is not different because of what I write afterwards. The two ten minute blocks were not very different in my experience.

So: what I typed (It was quite long so I gave you a segment of each)

I am lying in bed. I am typing. I am hearing traffic noises. My neck is hurting. My eyes are stinging. My nose is stuffy. I stretch my left hand. I am hearing traffic noises. I am breathing. I am typing. I am feeling sensations in my lips. I see the window. I am checking how much time is left. I am breathing. I am thinking. I am typing. My feet are cold. I am breathing. My left hand hurts. I stretch my hand. I am breathing ...

Lying in bed. Seeing letters on screen. Traffic noises. Hearing traffic noises. Left hand hurting. Moving head. Breathing. Feeling sad. Breathing. Hearing traffic noise. Seeing door. Seeing light. Breathing. Feeling cold feet. Thinking. Breathing. Stretching hands. Don't know how to describe. Breathing. Typing. Breathing. Typing. Feet are cold. Hearing clonk noises. Hearing voices. Hearing traffic. ….

With eyes closed … Going by your own, present experience, not by memory, hearsay or imagination, how big are you? What shape are you? Could you be any size or shape? Do you have boundaries? Is there a place where you stop and the world begins? Or is there nothing dividing you from the world?

I feel like a fuzzy blob shape, without clear boundaries or divisions. Hands stand out as full of sensation. I sort of feel roughly my current size, or possibly limitless(!) [not sure how to describe this].

Sit in a chair and bring awareness to all the contact points your body has with the chair and the floor. Feel the sense of pressure in your feet, move up to the pressure in the backside and the back. Close your eyes and focus just on the raw experience – ignore the ‘inner picture’ that has constructed the experience as ‘my body sitting in a chair’. Can you feel where the body ends and floor/chair begins or is the experience itself seamless? Without using thought – before thought intervenes – what is the nature of the experience? Where is the experience taking place? What are its qualities? Is there a ‘centre’ to this experience? Is there a ‘thing’ separate from the sensations that the experience is ‘happening to’? When thought tries to intervene, don’t follow it, allow awareness to remain in the raw experience. 

Fuzzy pressure sensations between body and chair. Seamless – no sharp boundary. The experience isn't anywhere. I don't know what the nature or qualities are [I mean, I don't know what you're asking]. There isn't a centre. There isn't a thing.

Ermintrude x

[Ermintrude]

Observing eating
Observing defecating
What happens in between?
Who digests?
I can’t see
Is it me, or no one? What’s the difference?

Observing movement
Who makes it happen?
I can’t see.
Movement carries on.

Observing thinking
Who spins these thoughts?
It is hidden.
I can’t see.
Thoughts pass by.

Observing observing,
Who is the observer?
It is hidden
I can’t see who is seeing.
Just another no one.

You only want to talk to the observing.
But who talks to you?
The spinning of thoughts
The moving of fingers
How could it be any different?

[Douglita]

Hi Ermintrude!

Really great poem!

One query:

Is it me, or no one? What’s the difference?

Well it makes a difference to know one way or the other, doesn't it?

Are emotions not just concepts and body sensations? What's so special about emotion?

Nothing is special about it, only plenty of people relate to some sensations as if they are somehow bad or wrong. The question (not assertion) was about whether some sensations were being cut off or cut out of the dialogue, and therefore whether the direct experience was missing something.

Direct experience seems clear to me – but it's just experience. I don't experience it in words and concepts, obviously. I've got to translate it into words when I write to you. So I can't express my experience directly. Clearly I'm expressing it in some way which makes you think that I don't have experience (?) or can't tell the difference between thought and experience.

As per the first comment above! It's not an assertion or a 'blanket' thing at all. I can relate very well to much of what you say in your answers and am simply checking with you that they also come 100% from direct experience. It's interesting that you often say you don't know what I'm asking, yet your answers indicate you do understand what to look for - as here:

Fuzzy pressure sensations between body and chair. Seamless – no sharp boundary. The experience isn't anywhere. I don't know what the nature or qualities are [I mean, I don't know what you're asking]. There isn't a centre. There isn't a thing.

The questions in direct pointing may seem a bit maddening, because they are usually asking you to look for something that isn't there - and the above quote is an example of many instances - you describe observing the absence of "boundary/divisions" or "centre" in direct experience - perfectly!).

Regarding this one:

[…] I feel like a fuzzy blob shape, without clear boundaries or divisions. Hands stand out as full of sensation. I sort of feel roughly my current size, or possibly limitless(!) [not sure how to describe this].

Ok so what is clear here is stronger or weaker sensations going on (the stronger ones you then locate mentally as belonging in hands). The fuzzy blob shape - is that seen/felt as a real shape, or is that an idea? The size - you express unsureness about that - but no wonder! Is there an actual felt sensation of size or just ideas about it ? Hands (from a purely felt sensation - with eyes closed) what is the exact sensation like? Try resting hands on something - where does the sensation end and begin? Ask any young child to draw hands and they will come up with bumps on the end of lines that mean 'arms' and some small extensions that denote fingers, but just on a sensation level - where or what is 'hand' and does sensation correspond to the mental picture?


From the labelling exercises,

My actual experience of doing this is:
I have an experience, like hearing a noise. Then I try to identify it, put it in words and remember whether you asked me to say “I” or not. Then I type either “I am hearing traffic noise” or “hearing traffic noise”. And repeat. The “I” part isn't in my experience.

The last sentence is really clear - great that "the "I" part isn't in experience". But ((Just checking)) Is that also clear that there is no 'MY' as in "my actual experience" or the I that can "have" an experience, can identify it or type about it?

Let me know if you'd like to continue. I'm certainly happy to for as long or as short as it may take!

Much love,

Maria

[Ermintrude]

Yes, let’s continue for the moment. I may not be able to post for a day or too though.

Ermintrude x

[Douglita]

Dear Ermintrude,

As we agreed together by PM, forgetmenot will be responding to you on this thread from now on when you're ready to return after the weekend. Have a great weekend!

Much love,

Maria

[forgetmenot]

Hello Ermintrude,

Douglita has communicated that you are willing to start from scratch. I know you are busy over the weekend and that is fine.
I am sending you a post that you can respond to when you are ready.

Please put ASIDE EVERYTHING you think you know and understand, and just be here with a willingness to LOOK at what is being pointed at with an open and curious mind.

You are already using the quote function, so please continue to do so.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
Post at least once a day or every second day. If you cannot post, or need more time, let me know. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.

This exploration is based on questions and exercises. I ask questions as a means of pointing, but the questions aren’t about finding something unknown. The questions refer to what is already actually known. And what is already known? Sound, smell, taste, thought, sensation and colour. So, questions are not answered through thinking/thoughts (theories) but by LOOKING. The key is that you really have to LOOK. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.

What is LOOKING? ‘LOOKING’ is just plain looking at what is here right now. It is moving from the conceptual to actual experience (AE). The term “Actual Experience” (AE) is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ without the thought stories. So, actual experience (AE) is image/colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought, at face value. What thought says ie, the content of thought is NOT experience. This is evidenced by the fact that you cannot taste the word 'sweet'. So, when looking at actual experience (AE), you are looking at raw experience WITHOUT what thought says ABOUT the raw experience.

To begin with, I would just like to know what your expectations are from having this exploration. So, in your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers about what expectations you have) could you please answer the 5 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have in blue text, and to answer them individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Love, Kay

[Ermintrude]

What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

This is the story so far:

E: Will you mentor me?
Mentor: Yes, if you’ve already seen through self
E: There’s no self
Mentor: Sounds good to me, just get it checked out
Faceless group: Can you find a self?
E: nope
Faceless group: “you have a good theoretical grasp but not the full emotional turning about. ... do a spell on LU with a Guide to nail things down”
E: *sigh* ok. I’m not sure what else there is to see.
Douglita: Can you find a self?
E: nope
Douglita: “I feel there's something missing from your answers or I haven't picked you up enough on really looking in DE... My sense is you're intellectually clear on this 100% (and that's very helpful) but this is not about an intellectual knowing, it's about a release from that.”
E: AAAAAAAAAAGH!

So... I feel like I’ve been going in circles for two months.

I can’t find this non existent self thing, but people are telling me I need to not see it better or something...

It would be great if you could either point me at what I’m missing, or confirm I get it. Or give me a way to confirm for myself. Honestly I’m pretty close to giving up on this as a practice. It’s kind of disempowering having other people tell me what my experience is. So (no pressure!) you’re my last hope!

I understand you, and Douglita, and everyone else, would like to hear about my actual experience. What happens is:
- Observing experience
- Putting it into words (thought)
- Typing it
So you will always always get my experience filtered through thought. I can’t see a way round it. It seems to me like I’m communicating badly, but I’m not sure how to fix it.

How will life change?

I might gain further mentoring. Or else give up on this, which would also be good as it would free time for other practice.

How will you change?

I don’t expect to, but who knows?

What will be different?

I have no expectations

What is missing?

I don’t know.

[Ermintrude]

PS Many thanks Maria for guiding me this far, even though we didn’t reach a conclusion. And many thanks Kay for continuing.

Ermintrude xx