futties

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russ
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Re: futties

Postby russ » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:46 am

Hi Wesley, :)
Yes if you cover your ears and sound becomes muffled, it is safe to assume they happen in the ear yet it is still an assumption.
-Can you really experience directly sounds happening in the ear?
-Which part of the ear exactly?
-If I don't know anything about the anatomy of an ear, where do sounds take place?

Look as closely as you can at the immediate experience of hearing a sound. Close your eyes and listen for a few moments, in the experience of sounds is there really a location? Or is the location assumed from thought?
Looking here, and sounds take place 'out there' somewhere.....the fly is buzzing on the windowsill. the location of the origin of the sound is there, with the fly....the sound is heard across the distance....it is not detectable in any certain part of the body, it sounds as if it is all around....thought says it is the ears that are hearing but i can't feel anything in the ear that is hearing...sound just surrounds...no location.....wow, direct experience of sounds happening is not in the ear....yet hearing is a direct experience, it is one of the five senses.....
if a small child with no language yet hears an excruciating sound would it know to cover the ears to shield the sound?...it is interesting to consider that it wouldn't, that it would have to be told to cover the ears for protection from painful sounds....and so learn through thought that it is ears that are used to hear with.....

Hug
R

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russ
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Re: futties

Postby russ » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:54 pm

p.s. think i slipped into a bit of logic at the end there! so just to confirm....there is no location in the experience of sound happening.....the sound is experienced as being all around, everywhere. It is thought that says it is the ears that hear....:)

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WesleySPK
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Re: futties

Postby WesleySPK » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:20 pm

Hi Russ,

Thanks for your answers today.

This is interesting:
sounds take place 'out there' somewhere.....the fly is buzzing on the windowsill. the location of the origin of the sound is there
it is not detectable in any certain part of the body, it sounds as if it is all around
So the sound is both taking place 'out there', yet it sounds as if it's all around at the same time?

-'Out there', outside of what exactly?
if a small child with no language yet hears an excruciating sound would it know to cover the ears to shield the sound?


I'm sure it would, but the point isn't doubting where hearing takes place. It is seeing where the information is coming from.

As another example, this is a great exercise for seeing how there is raw sense information, and how thought "fills in" or "assumes". We're just looking at how this works with sight, rather than sound.

Put a cup in front of you.
-What's on the other side of the cup?
-Is there any liquid at the bottom of it?
-What are the characteristics of this cup?

Hug,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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russ
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Re: futties

Postby russ » Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:01 am

Hi Wesley,
this is a great exercise for seeing how there is raw sense information, and how thought "fills in" or "assumes". We're just looking at how this works with sight, rather than sound.

Put a cup in front of you.
-What's on the other side of the cup?
-Is there any liquid at the bottom of it?
-What are the characteristics of this cup?
-As the other side of the cup is not in view, it can't be said what's on the other side with certainty.
-Same for the bottom of the cup. it is not in view, so can't be said with certainty if there is liquid in it or not.
-Most of what can be said about the cup characteristics is assumption...e.g. it is watertight, it is smooth, it has just one handle (could be another on the other side), it is empty, even the colour and design can only be told for the side of the cup in view...

I see that raw sense information is just what the eye can see, and anything else to be said about the cup is assumption.

Hug
R

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WesleySPK
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Re: futties

Postby WesleySPK » Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:38 pm

Hi Russ,
Most of what can be said about the cup characteristics is assumption...e.g. it is watertight, it is smooth, it has just one handle (could be another on the other side), it is empty, even the colour and design can only be told for the side of the cup in view...
Nice observations. So what about the cup even having a back side, or even having a bottom? Still an assumption?
I see that raw sense information is just what the eye can see, and anything else to be said about the cup is assumption.
So let's revisit listening than. That a sound is "over there" or "outside", is this raw sense information or is it an assumption? And again, outside of what exactly?
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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russ
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Re: futties

Postby russ » Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:24 am

Hi Wesley,
Nice observations. So what about the cup even having a back side, or even having a bottom? Still an assumption?
Yes, still an assumption. without picking it up and examining it all over, these observations are assumptions.
So let's revisit listening than. That a sound is "over there" or "outside", is this raw sense information or is it an assumption? And again, outside of what exactly?
REferring to sound as 'over there' is an assumption. It is assumed the buzzing sound is coming from the fly, over there on the window sill..these are thoughts, not raw sense information....any effort to pinpoint the source of sound is assumption....Outside refers to outside of the body, but in looking again at sound there's no line between inside and outside, its all one ....these are all just thoughts about sound, not the raw experience of sound....
Hmmm....
:D
R

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WesleySPK
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Re: futties

Postby WesleySPK » Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:46 pm

Hi Russ,

Great discoveries being made :) nice job.
Outside refers to outside of the body, but in looking again at sound there's no line between inside and outside, its all one
Voila! How does this all feel to you?

What do you feel yourself to be, if anything? Are there any 'sticky' points, anywhere where the illusion of 'me' or 'i' or 'russ' seems somehow unclear?

Big hug,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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russ
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Re: futties

Postby russ » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:57 pm

Hi Wesley, :)
How does this all feel to you?
I feel as though you have walked me through the most important realisation of my life. To a freedom that alters the way I experience life,...more wonder, as I look and see reality, instead of assumptions and their illusions. There is a sweetness to it all, that makes the heart smile....
What do you feel yourself to be, if anything? Are there any 'sticky' points, anywhere where the illusion of 'me' or 'i' or 'russ' seems somehow unclear? [/quote
'I" don't feel myself to be anything. 'I' don't exist except in language. LIfe just is. The body/mind complex just is. THere is no self, never has been, never will be. Very clear on this.

THankyou so much, Wesley, you have been so patient and so solid in your guidance....to see the emptiness, the oneness, that is, it is very uplifting. :D

Big hug
R

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WesleySPK
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Re: futties

Postby WesleySPK » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:52 pm

Hi Russ,
I feel as though you have walked me through the most important realisation of my life. To a freedom that alters the way I experience life,...more wonder, as I look and see reality, instead of assumptions and their illusions. There is a sweetness to it all, that makes the heart smile....
Wow, how great to read this :).
'I" don't feel myself to be anything. 'I' don't exist except in language. LIfe just is. The body/mind complex just is. THere is no self, never has been, never will be. Very clear on this.
I like how you phrased it, "I doesn't exist except in language". It seems we use/think the word all of the time and assume there is something real behind it.
THankyou so much, Wesley, you have been so patient and so solid in your guidance....to see the emptiness, the oneness, that is, it is very uplifting. :D
So glad to hear :), you're very welcome.

If you feel ready, I have 6 final questions to ask you. Do you feel complete?

Hug,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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russ
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Re: futties

Postby russ » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:29 pm

HI Wesley
Have been away a couple of days with no internet access....am ready for your 6 questions :D
R

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WesleySPK
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Re: futties

Postby WesleySPK » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:57 pm

Hi Russ,

No problem, here you go :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Hug,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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russ
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Re: futties

Postby russ » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:21 am

Hi Wesley,
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No, there is no separate entity 'self', 'Me' 'I' in reality anywhere. Ever. Only in language do they exist.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of a separate self is an assumption that is never questioned, and becomes something simply believed from the days we learn language, when the 'me' seems to be needed to make sense of things. All the 'my this' 'my that' creates a feeling of separateness, and the illusion of control. The feeling of separation, the desire to protect, redeem, control are all dysfunctions arising from this core belief of separation. The self is just a thought, and a thought can't think, decide, do anything. A thought just appears, and passes by. No need to attach ownership and energy to it. The mind is just labelling experience by preceding it with an 'I". Now I see this belief of a separate self is an illusion. The sense of self i had was just thoughts, feelings, emotions. No actual self at all. I look with my senses to find this self, but it does not exist in reality. There is just the brain, heart and body. No need for an entity to own them. they just exist and life just happens.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It feels a relief. To see the pointlessness of getting hooked into an illusory self, when the reality is so obvious when seen. Where I have been getting caught up in desires and fears, thoughts now arise that question, who is desiring, who is fearing, and then, there is no 'i', so why follow those thoughts with actions, .. and pleasant emotions follow this as a result of seeing truly. Freedom in this. I look at a flower and see it is beauty being expressed, vital and alive, not just a pretty flower, but perfection! Everywhere, perfection. Trusting in that. When I observe someone, a friend, behaving in a way that affects me, i can now just accept they are just as they are, just expressing as they need to express in that moment, and not get caught up in reactions, but calmly let it all just be.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Looking at raw sense information, and where assumptions come in that experience. with the sound exercise, i was really struggling to see the sense from the thought, then i suddenly listened to the sound being everywhere, no line of separation, and i saw the oneness of it all, and that there is no self in any of it.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
THese things are generally made in reference to a self, to someone making decisions, making choices, having intentions, having free will. There's no free will, because there's noone with a will. There's no control, cos there's noone managing things. It is just the illusion of self that makes it appear someone is doing these things. They are really just life happening by itself. Decisions just happen. The brain makes a choice, then the labelling kicks in and the mind discusses it. Once the decision is made, the heart knows and can feel if the choice feels right (lightness, openness) and go with it, or not (heaviness, contraction). There is no 'you' to be responsible for anything, but there are deeper and deeper feelings of rightness and wrongness depending on what is going on in the body and brain and heart, and consequences of decisions that can lead to suffering or joy....but no entity doing the suffering or joy...just life happening. At some point the desire to go with choices that feel right and light and joyful (like choosing to help someone that wants it), will be greater than those that feel wrong and heavy (like feeling afraid and choosing to walk past without helping).
6) Anything to add?
Thankyou for the wonderful work you do to help people like me see the way it all really is,

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WesleySPK
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Re: futties

Postby WesleySPK » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:01 pm

Hi Russ,

Great answers thank you. I enjoyed reading this.

I'll get back to you soon.

-W
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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WesleySPK
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Re: futties

Postby WesleySPK » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:07 pm

Hi Russ,

Thanks for your patience. I would like to look into a couple things:
The brain makes a choice, then the labelling kicks in and the mind discusses it. Once the decision is made, the heart knows and can feel if the choice feels right (lightness, openness) and go with it, or not (heaviness, contraction). There is no 'you' to be responsible for anything, but there are deeper and deeper feelings of rightness and wrongness depending on what is going on in the body and brain and heart, and consequences of decisions that can lead to suffering or joy....but no entity doing the suffering or joy...just life happening. At some point the desire to go with choices that feel right and light and joyful (like choosing to help someone that wants it), will be greater than those that feel wrong and heavy (like feeling afraid and choosing to walk past without helping).
Place two objects in front of you. Pick one object up, and watch very carefully this process and what's really happening. Where is the 'brain' in this? What's really happening, what can really be known 100% sure?

-How do you know it's the brain making these decisions? Can you actually experience 1st hand a brain making a decision?
-What turns feelings into feelings of 'rightness' or 'wrongness'? Do these feelings know/label themselves as such?

Hug,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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russ
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Re: futties

Postby russ » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:51 pm

Hi Wesley,
Place two objects in front of you. Pick one object up, and watch very carefully this process and what's really happening. Where is the 'brain' in this? What's really happening, what can really be known 100% sure?
Okay, so what i found was that the hand was drawn to one object, regardless of the thoughts appearing, or the mind discussing attributes of the two objects. The hand just picked up one object, and the mind followed with labelling "oh the hand picked up the blue pen, not the black one"
-How do you know it's the brain making these decisions? Can you actually experience 1st hand a brain making a decision?
Actually it was an assumption that the brain was making the decision. i can't feel the brain working, just assume that it does. all i can know is that the hand picked up the blue pen and not the black pen. The body just chose, like it just breathes.
-What turns feelings into feelings of 'rightness' or 'wrongness'? Do these feelings know/label themselves as such?
Rightness or wrongness, are just labels introduced by thoughts, after the experience of the feeling in the body. the mind jumps in to judge and analyse and reinforce the illusion of a self, but they are just thoughts. THe feelings don't come with the label. the feeling is felt, then the mind labels.

Hug
R


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