I've read all the books, but I need direct experience. Looking for a guide.

[DaoistHermit]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That in truth, reality is ineffable. Our notions of self and other are just concepts that condition this reality rather than accurately express it.

What are you looking for at LU?
Someone to constantly nudge me out of conceptual proliferation back into the clarity of realization. I've read the books and listened to far too many talks. I need to make sure that the things that I understand conceptually are actually being checked in the light of my experience.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Again, someone with the patience and the understanding who can keep me on track with the important questions. I can always go off on tangents, but I would like the conversation to keep me focused on inquiry that will bear fruit.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
On and off sitting meditation, mostly breath meditation or anapanasati. This was mainly struggling with a mind and fighting it to settle down, peppered with moments of actual silence that were beautiful enough to keep me going.

Inquiry wise, I have tried the awareness watching awareness methods, ATA, Actual Freedom's HAIETMOBA, Chinese 坐忘 as well as the "just sitting" of soto Zen.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Alberto]

My name is Mario, how should I call you?

If you would like I could be your guide.

I see you have experience and knowledge, this could be a double-bladed sword as acquired concepts tend to get in the way and the idea that “I” have experience could also be a hindrance.

For starters I suggest having always a beginner’s mind, starting with an empty cup is most beneficial.
The one thing that catches my eye is

mainly struggling with a mind and fighting it to settle down

What do you hope will happen ?
What don’t you want to happen?
In all sincerity what do you expect from all this?

Let me know if you want to go ahead, looking forward to your answers.

Blessings

[DaoistHermit]

My name is Mario, how should I call you?

If you would like I could be your guide.

Thanks Mario, I appreciate it and I'd love to move on with the process.

The one thing that catches my eye is

mainly struggling with a mind and fighting it to settle down

1.What do you hope will happen ?
2.What don’t you want to happen?
3.In all sincerity what do you expect from all this?

1. I'm hoping that a settled mind will allow me to better investigate the mind, leading to greater clarity and/or happiness.
2. I don't want to continue believing in stories and concepts that I know in reality are just conventional.
3. I expect to see through this idea of a doer. I can see that thoughts just come and go within awareness, and that the whole idea of a doer and an ego are just more concepts arising within this. I could go on and discuss years of conditioning etc., but that again is just more conceptual baggage. In all sincerity, "I" expect to unravel this egoic story by seeing that in reality these things never existed to begin with.

[Alberto]

Hello DaoistHermit
(Is it OK to call you this or you would rather something else?)

Since we are not talking about calming the mind but rather seeing past the illusion of a separate self let’s just get right to it.

In real time experience, in this very moment could you describe what comes up when I tell you there is no “you” as a separate entity, none whatsoever, no I, none as in zero. There never was anyone running the show, no director manager, witness, controller.
There is only life moving spontaneously, free and effortlessly without an I
Describe the full spectrum, what thoughts, feelings, emotions pop up upon hearing this.

Take your time to really feel through this and answer, no rush.

Blessings

[DaoistHermit]

Hello DaoistHermit
(Is it OK to call you this or you would rather something else?)

Since we are not talking about calming the mind but rather seeing past the illusion of a separate self let’s just get right to it.

In real time experience, in this very moment could you describe what comes up when I tell you there is no “you” as a separate entity, none whatsoever, no I, none as in zero. There never was anyone running the show, no director manager, witness, controller.
There is only life moving spontaneously, free and effortlessly without an I
Describe the full spectrum, what thoughts, feelings, emotions pop up upon hearing this.

Take your time to really feel through this and answer, no rush.

Blessings

Hi Alberto, you are welcome to call me by my username or simply call me Ben.

When I read what you wrote, I must say I don't feel any initial resistance to the idea. I can accept that there's nothing other than what is, and what is goes on without any conceptual stories of "I" or "other". The idea is seeing it over and over again until the mind actually accepts it and doesn't just toy with it as an intellectual game, yes?

(This is like the oft-used analogy of Santa Claus; I don't need to remind myself everyday that Santa Claus doesn't exist. I saw through that illusion and it wasn't something I returned to regularly to "check in" and make sure I still understood. The illusion was seen through and it was done.)

Naturally, this realization does bring up a few additional questions that I hope can help clarify things on my end:

1) This necessarily means that there is no such thing as free will, no? Without anybody doing anything, the model for reality then becomes (read:always was) a sort of "freefall" - like fate ticked the first domino 7 billion years ago and everything has been running based on previous causes and conditions since the universe began. Doing and choosing are just words to describe a process that is ultimately happening without any volition or autonomy. It's just all cause and effect, energy bouncing around. Does this sound about right?

2) Is there a "meditation" or inquiry that you think would be beneficial for me or someone of my temperament? I am currently sitting, waiting and watching until thoughts/stories arise, and then, rather than getting involved in them, seeing that they are based on a concept that isn't truly real in reality: the mind.


Thanks as always for your help and kindness, Alberto.

[Alberto]

Ben it is then!

Let's carry on,

I must say I don't feel any initial resistance to the idea

I want you to closely observe were your understanding is coming from, are you sure it is fully experiential and not intellectual? Are you referring to THIS as an idea or experience?

I can accept that there's nothing other than what is

Where is this acceptance coming from? Please elaborate.

The idea is seeing it over and over again until the mind actually accepts it and doesn't just toy with it as an intellectual game, yes?

Not necessarily, you see the mind most likely won't accept THIS, actually it's very likely it won't
, if anything it'll rattle it up even more this means you're on the right path. Let's say for now it is a simple shift of perception, that is all.

And definitely this is not an intellectual game, yes, it is about seeing it over and over again here and now until the mind relaxes and the looking for the I naturally drops. It's all about seeing, not thinking. Yes, there is a difference between seeing it and thinking about it, it's not an intellectual understanding that we are looking for here.

(This is like the oft-used analogy of Santa Claus; I don't need to remind myself everyday that Santa Claus doesn't exist. I saw through that illusion and it wasn't something I returned to regularly to "check in" and make sure I still understood. The illusion was seen through and it was done.)

Describe what remained when you stopped believing in a separate entity called "I"

This necessarily means that there is no such thing as free will, no? Without anybody doing anything, the model for reality then becomes (read: always was) a sort of "freefall" - like fate ticked the first domino 7 billion years ago and everything has been running based on previous causes and conditions since the universe began. Doing and choosing are just words to describe a process that is ultimately happening without any volition or autonomy. It's just all cause and effect, energy bouncing around. Does this sound about right?

Correct!

I am currently sitting, waiting and watching until thoughts/stories arise, and then, rather than getting involved in them, seeing that they are based on a concept that isn't truly real in reality: the mind.

Simply sitting is fine and allowing whatever may arise and pass away without manipulating the outcome is a great way to be present. On the other hand question further who is sitting, waiting, watching etc.

Answer what feels right
Blessings

[Alberto]

Hello Ben,

Are you still here?

Hope all is well take care

[DaoistHermit]

Hi Alberto.

First of, thank you for your patience. I am really trying to see all of this clearly, and I'd rather not rush it as that wouldn't be useful for any of us. Again, I appreciate your help.

I must say I don't feel any initial resistance to the idea

I want you to closely observe were your understanding is coming from, are you sure it is fully experiential and not intellectual? Are you referring to THIS as an idea or experience?

I can accept that there's nothing other than what is

Where is this acceptance coming from? Please elaborate.

I'll describe my experience below. Despite the limitations of language please understand that this was my experience and not just my intellectual theorizing about this:


It's seen now that that "acceptance" came as merely a thought, just another movement in THIS, which is beyond words.

More and more I see that the self was just a collection of unquestioned thoughts. Primary thoughts, which "build" a narrative and a framework for other thoughts. All of it, including my current analysis of it, is just more of this is-ness happening, and it happens effortlessly.

If I can describe this in words, the most important ones would be ineffability and effortlessness. Ineffable, because thought can never adequately capture the incredibleness of this. It's completely beyond thought or description. Effortless, because it is seen that the self was just a thought, and in reality selflessness was always always the case and the ego was never anything more than a perceptual error.

The idea is seeing it over and over again until the mind actually accepts it and doesn't just toy with it as an intellectual game, yes?

Not necessarily, you see the mind most likely won't accept THIS, actually it's very likely it won't
, if anything it'll rattle it up even more this means you're on the right path. Let's say for now it is a simple shift of perception, that is all.

That makes sense. The mind wouldn't want to accept it's own demise, right? Yet I find that when I have the most clarity, self is nowhere to be found, and then after the fact the mind takes responsibility for "attaining" a state when in reality, it was the very absence of itself that made it blissful/desirable in the first place!

And definitely this is not an intellectual game, yes, it is about seeing it over and over again here and now until the mind relaxes and the looking for the I naturally drops. It's all about seeing, not thinking. Yes, there is a difference between seeing it and thinking about it, it's not an intellectual understanding that we are looking for here.

Again, that makes perfect sense. It's about the seeing. Not the thinking, rationalizing, after-the-fact analysis that I've been doing for so many years! It's about constantly coming back to seeing until the mind accepts the truth of things (i.e relaxes) and the looking for an I drops away.

I'll sit with this for a few days as I wait for your response. Thanks as always, Alberto!

[Alberto]

Hello Be,

I just saw you replied, I will be getting back to you shortly.

Kindly
M

[Alberto]

<r>Hello Ben,<br/>

Just a couple of preliminaries I skipped in the introduction, although it's good to take your time with this don't take to long, you can also use it as a space to journal if you feel you still don't have answers, we want to keep a momentum going in order to deepen, the other thing is abstain from any non dual intellectual material of any sort during the process.

<QUOTE><s>

</s>That makes sense. The mind wouldn't want to accept it's own demise, right? Yet I find that when I have the most clarity, self is nowhere to be found, and then after the fact the mind takes responsibility for "attaining" a state when in reality, it was the very absence of itself that made it blissful/desirable in the first place!<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Correct, the mind will come up always with clever ways to reassert itself, in the most subtle of ways so questioning every though is key.<br/>

<QUOTE><s>

</s>Again, that makes perfect sense. It's about the seeing. Not the thinking, rationalizing, after-the-fact analysis that I've been doing for so many years! It's about constantly coming back to seeing until the mind accepts the truth of things (i.e relaxes) and the looking for an I drops away.
<e>

</e></QUOTE></r>

Answer right now! Tell me what is being seen? In this very moment...
What is there that is looking?
What is it that is not happening on automatic?

Let it flow, answer what feels true
In love and kindness

[DaoistHermit]

<r>Hello Ben,<br/>

Just a couple of preliminaries I skipped in the introduction, although it's good to take your time with this don't take to long, you can also use it as a space to journal if you feel you still don't have answers, we want to keep a momentum going in order to deepen, the other thing is abstain from any non dual intellectual material of any sort during the process.

<QUOTE><s>

</s>That makes sense. The mind wouldn't want to accept it's own demise, right? Yet I find that when I have the most clarity, self is nowhere to be found, and then after the fact the mind takes responsibility for "attaining" a state when in reality, it was the very absence of itself that made it blissful/desirable in the first place!<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Correct, the mind will come up always with clever ways to reassert itself, in the most subtle of ways so questioning every though is key.<br/>

<QUOTE><s>

</s>Again, that makes perfect sense. It's about the seeing. Not the thinking, rationalizing, after-the-fact analysis that I've been doing for so many years! It's about constantly coming back to seeing until the mind accepts the truth of things (i.e relaxes) and the looking for an I drops away.
<e>

</e></QUOTE></r>

Answer right now! Tell me what is being seen? In this very moment...
What is there that is looking?
What is it that is not happening on automatic?

Let it flow, answer what feels true
In love and kindness

Nothing can be said about what is being seen, and the "seer" isn't anything other than awareness itself. Truly, the lights are on but nobody is home.

[DaoistHermit]

There’s no Ben responding to the external world. There is only the world. How good it feels! But see? You were never trapped inside the body to begin with. There was always only just this, LIFE WITHOUT A CENTER! Ha! I get it now! It’s because vision isn’t a reference point for a self. And then you’re just left with this existence it self which is ultimately selfless and free of any actual center of reference. No reference point in the body because there’s no self there! There’s awareness, but that’s not a self. It’s just seeing, hearing, feeling, etc. Just happening, without any actual selves to be found. Magical.

[Alberto]

This is fantastic!

Another question for you.
What has changed and what hasn't?

[DaoistHermit]

Nothing changed in that there was never an issue to begin with, only wrong perception. So, you could you a wrong perception was exchanged for a clearer view of reality. Nothing else has changed.

[Alberto]

Hello Ben,

Here is a series of final questions to go through

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was
there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen?
How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?

Take your time with these questions if you feel the need to, since they are quite a few.
Look forward to hearing your answers

Much peace