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[Iida]

Hi Jeff,

so No "I" whasoever verified by any of the senses, only by connecting the different senses with thinking.

So now that we've looked at senses, we can move to thoughts.
Please look at thoughts in your direct experience:
Where do thoughts come from, do you create them?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you stop a thought in the middle?

I'll be here today for another two hours or so if you want to look more intensively now.
BR, Marie

[JeffBurkhart]

Hi Marie - yes thoughts, I have absolutely no idea where they come from and no control over them. Any attempt to stop them is pointless. And i have ansolutely no ability to predict them. That is one advantage of meditating is it makes this understanding very explicit.

[Iida]

Can you see what often seems to trigger thoughts and feelings?

[Iida]

Or to be more precise, if Jeff doesn't create the thoughts happening in Jeff's head or the feelings, what is it that causes them? This might be very obvious.

[JeffBurkhart]

Hi Marie - So yes, it clear Jeff doesn't create the thoughts. And since the feelings seem to be a reaction to the thoughts it's clear that Jeff doesn't cause them. I have absolutely no idea where the thoughts come from. Looking at this deeply at a meditation retreat my experience was that the thoughts were created spontaneously, arising out of nothing. And looking at this directly now that is still my experience - the thoughts are popping out of nowhere into my awareness. I have no control over them, they arise without any effort, and they are a complete surprise. I have no sense of where they come from or what thought is going to arise next. Thought bubbles spontaneously arising into awareness out of nothing and then disappearing into nothing. And in this way the thoughts are just like the other sensations - patterns of energy that are effortlessly, unpredictably arising out of emptiness and disappearing into awareness. So if I can't predict them, they arise without any effort, they are all just patterns of energy that I don't have any control over, then I can't claim any ownership of them. They are happening on their own. And the mechanics of their happening is a complete mystery to me. So I can't claim credit for any of it.

[Iida]

Good morning Jeff,

"And since the feelings seem to be a reaction to the thoughts it's clear that Jeff doesn't cause them"
Yes, this is the latter part of it, you got this correct. 

What I was pointing at is the endless cycle of sensations, thoughts and feelings.
Often thoughts are caused by a sensation, that is sensory data that comes from 'inside' or 'outside' our body. The other thing that triggers thoughts is thoughts - one thout leads to another, then another and another... 
So the sensation gets labeled by thoughts as something, then that thought causes a feeling, then the feeling gets labeled by another thought. That thought causes either amplification of the first feeling or it changes into another feeling... It's an endless feedback loop.

An example of this could be something like this... You hear some sounds and soon thinking labels them: oh it's this one of my favourite songs, from the 80's! That triggers another thought: I was sooo in love at that time. Then a warm sensation in the body, maybe a hint of longing for your youth? Another thought comes: my love ended painfully. Another feeling caused by that: for a second you feel the pain in your body almost as if it was yesterday, a cramp in your stomach area. That gets labeled by thoughts: oh I behaved so stupidly at that time, I was so naive, I should have apologised! The thought triggers another feeling, that is labeled as shame. Then another thought: it was almost 30 years ago, I shouldn't be feeling shame over something that happened so long ago. Another feeling of blaming yourself...

So what's the difference in whether you believe yourself to be the thought I/me/mine or not? That makes all the difference. If you see yourself as that thought, everything seems to happen to or be I/me/my/mine. If not, then it's only like a play you watch, impressions rising and falling but happening no no one. The same cycle might even go on, but you don't feel you're 'inside' it, that it throws you around. It just happens. The cycle might also stop if there's no more the thought of I/me/mine to keep it going. You might just laugh, that is so funny, how the mind works. You can perceive things like the original sound directly and intimely just as the sensory data comes, without the interpretation of he mind. 

Now I'd like you to do a very very simple thing. 
If you want to check whether there is a chair in the room you just very casually look.
Look the same way, without effort. Just simply look right now, as you read this. Can you find an I as anything more than a thought? Can you find you? Tell me what you see.

You're doing great.
Marie

[JeffBurkhart]

Yes, the endless feedback look. I see that clearly.

And yes, the difference between being identified with thoughts and being thrown around by them, versus thoughts arising freely in the field and not taking them personally. I had that experience this evening as I was walking Stanley our dog.

Looking for a me, looking for an I that is anything more than a thought - I look down and see "my hands" on the keyboard, but "my" and "hands" are both clearly concepts. What is actually there in the direct perception is color, shades and lines. Looking down at this "body" I see the more colors and shapes - the blue of my bathrobe, the color and shape of legs, but in the direct perception of it it is all equal colors and shapes in the field of perception. There is the seeming movement of the breath, but that is more thought construction. The movement is just shifting colors and shapes. So colors and shapes where this body is located, and looking around the room there are more colors and shapes. All of them equal, not an I to be found in any of it. Now I am looking back and forth from this body to the room with the experience of all of it being equal, all of it an equal display of colors and shapes. None of it indicates a me, all of it in effortless, equal balance, all of it equally free because none of it has the responsibility of saying anything about me. So no, no "me" indicated by seeing. That clearly takes some thought, and some belief in the thought to build that up.

I am off to bed but I will look forward to following up more.

Thank you, Jeff

[Iida]

Hi there Jeff!

You did some really nice looking yesterday.

How's everything today? Has anything special come up, maybe some feelings, thoughts? Write whatever comes up.

Marie

[JeffBurkhart]

Good morning/evening Marie -
I am appreciating your intuition with your questions. I am feeling a mixture of lots of excitement and some body oriented fear. I am very excited about this this thread of 1) recognizing that the only way I get information from the world is through sensations. Thoughts are just a recycling of old beliefs with nothing new to offer. 2) Perceptions are all being equally received and don't inform anything outside of their direct experiencing. Nothing personal about them. 3) Any sense of I really does require thought activity and belief in the thoughts 4) So resting in that and letting it all be.

And rather than that be a passive thing, that invokes an experience of excitement and wanting to fully engage it.

And also with that last night I was aware of a bodily sense of fear. Lots of energy running through this body so I was sleeping lightly. I am also catching a mild cold so I'm a little congested. There were a few times where I could feel fear run through as the body woke itself up w/ a fear of not being able to breath. Not a huge deal in, but it did make me aware of how primal this identification with the body is and how strong that survival instinct is. Again, I don't have any issue with being with that and being open to that, just remarkable the power of this organic thing and the pointing exercises do seem to have raised the energy level in this system and created more access to this primal level.

I'll be working with receiving the perceptions in their purity until I hear from you next.

Take care, Jeff

[JeffBurkhart]

And at a basic level, appreciating the difference between "isness" and "meness". Sensations just being what they are, all of them being equal, just a basic "isness" to it all. Versus the energy to claim them, associate meaning, and make a "me" out of them. Feels like there is energy getting freed up with the letting go into the "isness". Interesting how that seems to put everything in balance. Attributing meaning, believing in the mind activity that personalizes these sensations seems to add a weight to things, make them heavy. By contrast, letting these sensations be, granting them their freedom has a lightness and a buzz to it.

[Iida]

I came to think something I wrote before now written in a closer to reality way, since I noticed there still was an apparent you written in the previous version. :)

So what's the difference in whether there is an attachment to the thought I/me/mine or not? That makes all the difference. If there is a belief in that thought, everything seems to happen to or be I/me/my/mine. If not, then it's only like a play happening all by itself, impressions rising and falling but happening no no one. The same cycle might even go on, but there is no feeling of a you being 'inside' it, that it throws a 'you' around. It's just thoughts happening. The cycle might also stop if there's no more the thought of I/me/mine to keep it going. Laughter might happen, that is so funny, how the mind works. Things like the original sound can be perceived directly and intimely just as the sensory data comes, without the interpretation of he mind.

It's good you wrote about the fear. Although you said after this that it's no huge deal, there is something we'll be looking at next.

There were a few times where I could feel fear run through as the body woke itself up w/ a fear of not being able to breath.

Please observe in real life (not by thinking) which is more true:
I breathe OR breathing happens? When you're asleep, is there a you to breathe then either? is an I needed for breathing to happen?
I circulate my blood OR circulation happens? Did your parents remind you to circulate your blood until you learned to remember? :)
I wake up OR waking up happens?

Please come up with as many things as you can (well, not hundreds needed though) that happen in Jeff without a doer. Observing Stanley might help. :) Have fun with it!

[JeffBurkhart]

Hi Marie -

Do I breath or does breathing happen? Breathing is happening all of the time without me being conscious of it - when I am asleep, when my attention is elsewhere, the few times in my life when I have been unconscious. If I were doing it this life would be at great risk because any lapse could be the end of the life of this body. Also, this life would be in big trouble because "I" don't really know how to do a breath, much less all of the nuances of the different types of breath. Also, whenever attention goes to the breath it is always a discovery - "I" never know what the quality of breath is going to be like. If "I" were doing it then "I" should know. And the breath has a rhythm to it that is quite a mystery. So it is much, much more true to say that breathing happens.

And circulating blood, well there can't be any pretenses about a "me" doing that because there is no conscious control of that. That operates on its own, responding to what this physiology and nervous system are doing. So definitely more accurate to say that circulation is happening.

And other functions that happen in Jeff without a doer - this body sweats, it regulates its temperature, digests food, grows hair, absorbs water, cells absorb oxygen, expel waste, divide and multiply into the right type of cells, dreams happen, waking happens, sleepiness happens, perceptions happen, thoughts happen, hunger happens, fighting of disease happens, aging happens, desires arise, reactivity arises, skin cells breath and tan themselves, my eyes focus and moisturize themselves, itches arise, scratching happens, mental images arise, attention gets fixated on different thoughts, thoughts arise, breathing happens, attention wanders, a sense of orientation happens (in time, in space, in relation to others), fear arises, preferences arise, pain arises, pleasure arises, curiosity arises, emotions arise, this body is regulating itself in a billion different ways, energy arises, a constant flow of change is arising, boredom arises, judgements arise. Me being a doer implies I am choosing these things, but its clear that these things are happening on their own, in their own, completely mysterious way, and then the mind is coming in after the fact to put a story around it. But it is always a step behind. What is, already is and it is only after that that the mind perceives it, forms judgements about it, strategizes, claims it, etc. Doing something implies being the initiator, and the mind is always a step behind.

Looking at this the other way, I am finding that "I" can't claim credit for anything. Since I don't know what thought is going to arise next, I have no idea what openness, desire, emotion or reactivity is going to arise next. I can't tell you how I move my body, how I do anything. There is a belief that "I" am willing myself to do things, but I can't claim any credit for where that agenda comes from, what really determines any "decision", nor how that "doing" is executed.

Feeling into that there is a feeling of being stopped in my tracks ("my tracks" - language is getting more and more awkward here). A sense of not having any direction. A sense of being landed in the center with the rug being pulled out from under the usual sense of a "me" with an agenda. A sense of not having to go anywhere. Right now it is quite a mystery where anything comes from. And there is a sense of quiet, openness and joy in that.

And while personalizing this may be a bit off the mark here, I do want to thank you for your time and consideration. This is an incredibly generous offering which I am greatly appreciating.

Thank you, Jeff

[Iida]

You are very welcome, this is my pleasure. Thank you for honestly looking at the true nature of reality. Let's keep up the good work!

Amazing body that is - all of that happening all by itself... :)

"Feeling into that there is a feeling of being stopped in my tracks ("my tracks" - language is getting more and more awkward here). A sense of not having any direction. A sense of being landed in the center with the rug being pulled out from under the usual sense of a "me" with an agenda. A sense of not having to go anywhere. Right now it is quite a mystery where anything comes from. And there is a sense of quiet, openness and joy in that."

This is absolutely wonderful to read! Should there be a sense of direction? Is that anything more than a thought?

"Looking at this the other way, I am finding that "I" can't claim credit for anything. Since I don't know what thought is going to arise next, I have no idea what openness, desire, emotion or reactivity is going to arise next. I can't tell you how I move my body, how I do anything. There is a belief that "I" am willing myself to do things, but I can't claim any credit for where that agenda comes from, what really determines any "decision", nor how that "doing" is executed."

You know you can't claim credit for anything, but you write "There is a belief that "I" am willing myself to do things". It doesn't look like you actually believe in it anymore. Is that either then anything more than another thought passing by?

Please look closely and give me any examples of anything you are absolutely certain YOU have ever chosen yourself. Did you choose to like women rather than men or the other way around? Did you choose to like/dislike chocolate?

Marie

[JeffBurkhart]

Hi Marie - Yes, let's keep it up.

Should there be a sense of direction? I can't say that there should or shouldn't. Either way that would just be an arbitrary belief. Not having a sense of direction is just noticeable in contrast to the way of being that has habitually operated here. Not having a sense of direction has a pleasurable sense of freedom to it. It also feels versatile, as in any direction could be taken up if that was what was called for.

As for "There is a belief that "I" am willing myself to do things.". Yes, right now that is only a passing thought, and a half-hearted one at that. Where the will to do things (or not) comes from is really a complete mystery. But right now there is not the experience of will to believe in that thought.

As for what I am absolutely certain I have ever chosen. Yes, sexual preference was a given, not something I chose. Every partner I have been with it seems I was innately attracted to and didn't have any choice about the level of attraction, what attracted me, etc. In the past I have believed that I have chosen things like clothes, jobs, places to live. But in looking at that, those "choices" were just the acting out of preferences which I didn't have any choice about. At first, "choosing" something that is better for me ("choosing" to not to act on an attraction to someone else, "choosing" to not drink, etc.), seems to entail a thought process, a decision making process. But I wasn't choosing the thoughts, couldn't predict which thought was going to come up next, couldn't predict how I would feel about the thoughts, etc. So how can I claim to be the one deciding something when the whole process is a mystery that I don't have control over?

Is that really possible that "I" have never chosen anything? At first it seems that I am choosing to engage in this process, but the interest in this was spawned by similar interests beforehand, which in turn were spawned by a desire for peace, which in turn was spawned by pain which certainly wasn't a conscious choice that I had anything to do with. So the illusion of choice is just that, an illusion, not something "I" ever had control over.

In order for one to be able to choose, one must be able to choose freely and one must be in control of one's choice. My preferences seem to come out of the blue so no choice there. Not having chosen my parents or my circumstances growing up means I didn't choose my reactivity which seems to be the other source of decisions. So no choice there.

Desires get acted out, or not, but I can't say there is a choice there - I didn't choose to have the desire, and then the seeming decision making process around whether or not to act on the desire is the same unpredictable, mysterious process described above which I can't say I have control over. And if "I" don't have control over it, then "I" can't be doing it.

Sorry, there is looping on this - its taking some time to sink in. Have I really, really never had a choice? It is very clear I didn't choose my childhood, and it is very clear that as a child I wasn't making any choices, just the innocent acting on needs and innately given desires. And everything else is built up on that - reactions and strategies, ever increasingly complex coping strategies (which themselves weren't choices). So if there wasn't choice in the beginning, and everything else is just a reaction to that, then there wasn't any choice along the way.

Huh. Who knew? There is desire arising here to watch this process in action.

Jeff

[JeffBurkhart]

Boy, lots of excitement and energy happening here. Rereading our thread last night it was pretty amazing how much clearer things have gotten in just a few days. Some points that are resonating here -

The only new information, the only real information is coming in from direct perception.

Direct experience itself is very clean and direct, only giving information about itself. There is a feeling of being washed clean by the purity of direct perception. Even if there are many times when identification takes hold, there is the perpetual opportunity to get washed clean, be informed by direct perception.

This built up belief system is really old and stale. Perpetuating any belief in that will lead to the same stale results. Absolutely nothing new in what the mind has to offer. Letting that recognition sink in ignites a fire of motivation here.

Letting all perceptions (including thoughts) be, and letting them all be equal. No need to emphasize one over another. Receiving it all effortlessly.

While its clear there is the possibility of everything being deconstructed into pure, wordless presence (the body is a concept, everything is a construction), right now it seems the critical construction to see through is the "me". So no need to force this deconstruction on all fronts. That may or may not come, but for now, yes, Stanley and my cat Meeko exist, intimate ones in this life, neighbors, friends, this house, work, they all exist. It is that extra step of personalization that is the fork in the road and that is where there is motivation to catch the identification in the act. And while this information in many ways isn't new, right now there is the experience of seeing it clearly for the first time. And there is huge excitement in that recognition. It feels like the game is afoot.

And the magnitude of the recognition of the "I" not making any choices is still sinking in. It feels like there is logical recognition of that truth and now there is curiosity to see how that recognition plays out in the world.

And very likely this is just the tip of the iceberg, with much more to be pointed to, explored and understood. Or maybe not. There could be just this.There is a lot of excitement here to engage with this either way. So no knowing where this goes, excitement in that not knowing, and feeling immediately engaged with what is here.

There is a feeling of lightness and quiet exhilaration here. Thank you for that.

Jeff