liberated? help please!

[odemira]

Also:

yes the only way to see it is to see it. i'm still looking!

Ger, your mind is tricking you here maybe? Everything we say and think is a command to our brain - so the thought is 'the only way to see it (the absence of self) is to see it (the absence of self). That can't ever happen, you can't ever see something that doesn't exist but you can spend a lifetime looking! This thought will keep your mind in a continual loop. What would be a more helpful command here, that shows you the truth of what you now realise logically?

BW
Odemira

[GerryBeee]

Are there any other fearful consequences of releasing the belief in the self? Sit with this question, and let the mind give answers gradually - sometimes these can take a while to surface.

i'll see what else comes up. this 'loss of control' fear seems a genuine issue here. and the resistance is certainly real - no denying that. the fact that one part of the brain is struggling to see through an illusion created by another part seems to be evidence in itself that there's no one controlling what the brain does.

How clever the mind is! It produces the very thought that prevents its non-existence being seen. This is SIMPLE, Ger, tell your mind that it is SIMPLE to see that there is no self there. You're already looking at its absence every moment. There is just LOOKING, just SEEING, no YOU doing it.

thank you so much for that! that is invaluable advice. wow i fell right into that one. x)

Ger, your mind is tricking you here maybe? Everything we say and think is a command to our brain - so the thought is 'the only way to see it (the absence of self) is to see it (the absence of self). That can't ever happen, you can't ever see something that doesn't exist but you can spend a lifetime looking! This thought will keep your mind in a continual loop. What would be a more helpful command here, that shows you the truth of what you now realise logically?

i do fear getting into an endless loop of looking and never finding. frankly that's terrifying and would be a waste of life. i will remind myself that this seeing is actually simple. whew, that alone makes this less stressful.

thanks again!!

[odemira]

Hi Ger,

this 'loss of control' fear seems a genuine issue here. and the resistance is certainly real

Fear is just a feeling, nothing to shy away from. It's a protective mechanism, and serves a useful purpose. If I'm standing near the crumbling edge of a 300m high cliff, the feeling of fear might cause me to take a step backwards, as there is a genuine safety issue present. But if I'm already standing 2m back from the edge, any feeling of fear is based only on imagination.

Can you welcome this fear of losing control, thank it for being there? And then look at whether what it's saying is valid or not. Is there a genuine safety issue here or is it imagination? If you've recognised that everything so far in your life has happened automatically, without you controlling it, as there is no 'you' there to control it, then is the thought 'I might not be able to control what happens' true? What other thoughts arise when you think 'I might not be able to control what happens'?

i do fear getting into an endless loop of looking and never finding. frankly that's terrifying and would be a waste of life

Sounds like there's some heavy judgements going on here about yourself, about your life being a waste unless you can become enlightened? Can you please look at the fear that you might be an eternal seeker - think the thought and notice where in the body you feel the fear arise. Focus on that area, and ask the fear to come closer, and ask it to tell you its message - what is it protecting, what thought is behind it? Once the thought is recognised, the feeling of fear leaves, and then we can examine the thought to see how true it is or not.

Getting clear of these fears, and any others that might not yet have emerged, is really important so that the mind can relax and see clearly.

i will remind myself that this seeing is actually simple.

It's happening all the time already, always has done. Bit like those old 3d image pictures, the image has always been there, it's just our brains can't register it until it is seen, and then it can be seen every time. Keep focusing on LOOKING at what is really there. Can 'you' be looked at? Can 'you' look? Or is there just looking?

With best wishes
Odemira

[GerryBeee]

hi odemira,

Fear is just a feeling, nothing to shy away from. It's a protective mechanism, and serves a useful purpose. If I'm standing near the crumbling edge of a 300m high cliff, the feeling of fear might cause me to take a step backwards, as there is a genuine safety issue present. But if I'm already standing 2m back from the edge, any feeling of fear is based only on imagination.

look at whether what it's saying is valid or not. Is there a genuine safety issue here or is it imagination?

what it's saying is certainly not valid. a lot of silliness is going on - i'm 200ft back from the cliff and this protective mechanism is still kicking in. there's clearly no danger of any kind here. i'm not sure why there would be a perception of danger when it's obvious there is no danger. yet something is afraid. it's subtle and clever too - it tried to hide the fact that it's actually fear but that's what's actually there.

Focus on that area, and ask the fear to come closer, and ask it to tell you its message - what is it protecting, what thought is behind it? Once the thought is recognised, the feeling of fear leaves, and then we can examine the thought to see how true it is or not.

that's simple enough. i want to do useful and productive things in my life. but i'm really stuck on this no-self thing and i can't see how i could give it up at this stage. i don't want to spend 30 years trying to crack this the way some people do, but how could i even stop? i'm living a lie and i know it, but i don't want my whole life to be about seeing through it. i'm glad you emphasised the simplicity of this - it gives me hope that this can be a successful investigation that doesn't take up my whole life.

It's happening all the time already, always has done. Bit like those old 3d image pictures, the image has always been there, it's just our brains can't register it until it is seen, and then it can be seen every time. Keep focusing on LOOKING at what is really there. Can 'you' be looked at? Can 'you' look? Or is there just looking?

very good. i'm looking every day as much as i can. i think a big part of the effectiveness of this thread is just to keep me focused on looking. before we began i was drifting all over the place. some days looking - some days not. though really there is only looking and hoping and frustration - i still haven't found anything that's supposedly doing the looking. anyway, i'll soldier on. =)

many thanks!!

[odemira]

there's clearly no danger of any kind here. i'm not sure why there would be a perception of danger when it's obvious there is no danger. yet something is afraid.

Remember, thoughts arise automatically in response to sensory inputs, and then feelings (this time of fear) embody the thought. It's the same process happening over and over. This fear's a bit like having a granny who always tells you to wear your vest if she sees you going outside - sensory input > thought > action (talking). It's just what she does cos she loves you! Give her a hug and tell her all is well, you'll be fine, and she'll go away happy.

i'm really stuck on this no-self thing and i can't see how i could give it up at this stage.

is there a YOU that is stuck? Or is that just a thought? Remember, thoughts are real and arise automatically in response to sensory inputs or to other thoughts, but the content of thought is not real. Real doesn't go away when you stop believing in it.

is there a THINKER? or is THINKING happening automatically?
is there a DOER? or is DOING happening automatically

though really there is only looking and hoping and frustration - i still haven't found anything that's supposedly doing the looking. anyway, i'll soldier on. =)

Yes, correct - there is only LOOKING happening, HOPING happening (which is a thought) and frustration being felt which is the embodiment of the thought 'I can't find anything'. It's the same sensory input > thought > feeling >thought loop going on AUTOMATICALLY.

i still haven't found anything that's supposedly doing the looking.

If you hunt for a unicorn, you're never going to find it, no point soldiering on.
You still seem to be working on the belief that there is someone doing the looking, just you can't find them.
So turn that round, and check out the hypothesis that there is no-one doing the looking, there is only LOOKING happening automatically, a sensory input to the brain.

This process will take the time it takes, no pressure to pass the exam here!

with best wishes
Odemira

[GerryBeee]

This fear's a bit like having a granny who always tells you to wear your vest if she sees you going outside - sensory input > thought > action (talking). It's just what she does cos she loves you! Give her a hug and tell her all is well, you'll be fine, and she'll go away happy.

that's fair enough. it seems granny wants me to wear a vest even when i am not going outside though. i'll try to get to the bottom of this.

is there a YOU that is stuck? Or is that just a thought? Remember, thoughts are real and arise automatically in response to sensory inputs or to other thoughts, but the content of thought is not real. Real doesn't go away when you stop believing in it.

is there a THINKER? or is THINKING happening automatically?
is there a DOER? or is DOING happening automatically

i find only the thought and a feeling of stuckness. thinking is nice and clear and no one is behind it. i still haven't seen clearly that there is no doer i reckon. actions do occur as part of a perception > thought > action cycle and sometimes that is seen clearly. other times actions just seem to happen for no clear reason. i just drank some 7up. i wasn't thirsty - i just drank it. there was no obvious stimulus for so it i can't determine why that action actually occurred. a lot of stuff like that happens - the body does stuff but the reasons for it aren't obvious. it seems to make things trickier to see clearly.

So turn that round, and check out the hypothesis that there is no-one doing the looking, there is only LOOKING happening automatically, a sensory input to the brain.

ok i will approach it from that angle.

many thanks!!
.

[odemira]

other times actions just seem to happen for no clear reason. i just drank some 7up. i wasn't thirsty - i just drank it. there was no obvious stimulus for so it i can't determine why that action actually occurred. a lot of stuff like that happens - the body does stuff but the reasons for it aren't obvious. it seems to make things trickier to see clearly.

Ok, may have slightly misled you by talking about the sensory input>thought loop. What I'm wanting you to look at is how the body does stuff automatically. There have been experiments done that show that motion starts in the body several microseconds before the thought to do the motion happens in the brain. The arm picks up the 7up and drinks it, the mind produces a labelling thought - 'I just drank some 7up'.

the body does stuff but the reasons for it aren't obvious. it seems to make things trickier to see clearly.

It makes it trickier because you're looking for something that you are assuming is there, an I that drank the 7up. There is no I that drank the 7up, the arm moved automatically, picked the 7up and drank it, then the mind labels what has just been experienced with some words. And the way English language works is that there has to be a subject, a verb and an object. Other languages don't work like this, they only have the verb and the object (Thai, I believe, is one). All there was was 'drinking 7up'.

Test this out more Ger. Really test it. Test it until you're 100% clear. Is breathing happening, or is it I am breathing?
You've done this before, suggest you go back to the beginning of the thread and redo each thing I asked you to do. But instead of having the perspective 'there's a self in here somewhere, I've got to find it', test things from the perspective of 'there's been no evidence of a self other than being the content of a thought, so what's actually happening when the body is walking etc'.

it seems granny wants me to wear a vest even when i am not going outside though. i'll try to get to the bottom of this.

Yes, ask the fear 'so what?' If there's not an I to control what Ger does (and there never has been one!), what does the mind say will happen. And then ask that thought 'so what?' Keep going with the 'so what's' until you reach the bottom where every 'so what' is the same answer. Let me know what you find at the bottom.

with best wishes
Odemira

[GerryBeee]

hi odemira!

Ok, may have slightly misled you by talking about the sensory input>thought loop. What I'm wanting you to look at is how the body does stuff automatically. There have been experiments done that show that motion starts in the body several microseconds before the thought to do the motion happens in the brain. The arm picks up the 7up and drinks it, the mind produces a labelling thought - 'I just drank some 7up'.

wow the mind does a very professional job of making it seem like a 'me' is controlling the body. there's no good evidence for it but it sure seems convincing!

Other languages don't work like this, they only have the verb and the object (Thai, I believe, is one). All there was was 'drinking 7up'.

LOL half the people in thailand must be liberated! actually i might be confusing myself with that pointer. i would say all there was was 'body drinking 7up'. am i making a mistake to look at the pointer this way?

instead of having the perspective 'there's a self in here somewhere, I've got to find it', test things from the perspective of 'there's been no evidence of a self other than being the content of a thought, so what's actually happening when the body is walking etc'.

very good. i'll approach it from this angle.

Yes, ask the fear 'so what?' If there's not an I to control what Ger does (and there never has been one!), what does the mind say will happen.

yes i've been working along these lines and the fear has dissolved i think. it was layered with another fear - a fear that there will be a radical change in my life if i see this. but both fears are clearly unfounded. if there never was any control then nothing radical is going to change and there is no control to lose! that problem seems to be sorted now as best i can tell. a little clear thinking was all that was needed.

many thanks!

[odemira]

Hi Ger,

yes i've been working along these lines and the fear has dissolved i think. it was layered with another fear - a fear that there will be a radical change in my life if i see this. but both fears are clearly unfounded. if there never was any control then nothing radical is going to change and there is no control to lose! that problem seems to be sorted now as best i can tell. a little clear thinking was all that was needed.

Great stuff! And you've gained a useful tool for dealing with any other fears that might still be buried.

i would say all there was was 'body drinking 7up'. am i making a mistake to look at the pointer this way?

What we're wanting to do is see that there wasn't a SELF directing or controlling the drinking process. Which you've done clearly.

wow the mind does a very professional job of making it seem like a 'me' is controlling the body. there's no good evidence for it but it sure seems convincing!

Santa Claus seems entirely convincing until you realise he's not real. If you've been told since early childhood that you are inside the body, then you're going to believe that, and act as if it was so, yes? Liberation is getting free of that belief, by the simple act of looking into the practical nature of what's actually happening and seeing that there is no you there except as the content of a thought.

Just keep looking at the evidence that there is NO SELF directing or controlling anything, nor is there a self that experiences events. It's all the body and mind working automatically, life just happening. Life doesn't need a 'you'.

Is there anywhere where there still feels like there's a self?

with best wishes
Odemira

[GerryBeee]

hi odemira!

Santa Claus seems entirely convincing until you realise he's not real. If you've been told since early childhood that you are inside the body, then you're going to believe that, and act as if it was so, yes?

it's an interesting belief really. it's like a spinning bicycle wheel or something - it has momentum. you can see it's a false belief and yet still believe it. eventually i suspect it will slow down and stop of its own accord.

Just keep looking at the evidence that there is NO SELF directing or controlling anything, nor is there a self that experiences events. It's all the body and mind working automatically, life just happening. Life doesn't need a 'you'.

that is the plan. hopefully it will work out. =)

Is there anywhere where there still feels like there's a self?

yes. it's hard to see that consciousness isn't my consciousness. i don't think i've popped that bubble yet. it seems so intimate - more subtle maybe, but now that i'm into looking at it, it seems more *me* than thoughts or even the body. i'm not sure how to work with this one. any pointers for this?

many thanks!

[odemira]

Hi Ger,

it's an interesting belief really. it's like a spinning bicycle wheel or something - it has momentum. you can see it's a false belief and yet still believe it.

Seeing something is a false belief and still believing it - isn't that called delusion? You wanted the truth, not delusion?

Just keep looking at the evidence that there is NO SELF directing or controlling anything, nor is there a self that experiences events. It's all the body and mind working automatically, life just happening. Life doesn't need a 'you'.

that is the plan. hopefully it will work out. =)

Hope is a only a thought. Keep looking. Can you see a self? Can you hear a self? Can you touch a self? Can a self see, hear or touch anything? Self is a concept, a thought, no more reality to it than to a purple fairy.

it's hard to see that consciousness isn't my consciousness. i don't think i've popped that bubble yet. it seems so intimate - more subtle maybe, but now that i'm into looking at it, it seems more *me* than thoughts or even the body.

Sure, there is consciousness in the body. Even when you're completely unconscious, in a coma, there is still a life force animating the body. That sense of being alive is of course very intimate and very familiar - it's been there all the time the body people call Ger has been alive. It will remain there post-gate. The question now is, How does it belong to a self? If you can't locate a self in the body/mind, if a self is only the subject or object of a thought, where is the self that possesses consciousness? Remember what you noticed about going to sleep.

You're nearly there, Ger, keep looking. The mind can be desperate to be someone, otherwise it fears there being noone there!

with best wishes
Odemira

[odemira]

Still looking, Ger?
What are you seeing?

[GerryBeee]

hi odemira,

Still looking, Ger?
What are you seeing?

the looking is all done! it's so weird - you really don't find what you're looking for. there *is* finding though, but not by anyone. I wondered what it would be like when this was all over. now that it's seen it's a little hard to compute. I'm not sure how to put it into words. It's like trying to describe the colour green - what words do you use for something like this? nothing sticks to it properly.

i'm really just at a loss so i'll just talk about what i remember from yesterday.

I spent hours looking at what was going on through the lens of "if there is no me then there is only what's happening." everything that i could observe i asked whether it made sense when looked at through that lens - or were there any discrepancies. for about 5 hours it was just that fits, that fits, that fits...

at a certain point it just became obvious that I wasn't doing this at all - the looking wasn't something being done by me, it was just 'being done'. everything was just running along by itself. no me making it happen and no me it was happening to. there really was only *what is*. the surprising part is how ordinary this all was - it's like putting on an old pair of jeans or something - it's very familiar somehow and really quite ordinary.

there was some very nice relief though. that can't be denied. relief that seeking an answer to this was finally over. most of the questions i asked in this thread seem so silly now. just the mind playing its tricks really. it's quite funny to look back over them =)

today things are much the same. stuff is still just happening nicely - a river of flowing events one after the other. typing, breathing, thoughts, memories, hunger, a slight headache. just life living itself. it's funny i thought ger was required for things to function properly - that seems rather comical now! the 'feelings of self' so to speak are still there which is interesting - but they don't belong to anyone. it's obvious they never did. many things seemed so personal but it turns out nothing is personal - that word needs to be struck out of the dictionaries! =)

more relief bubbling up now. i can rest soundly tonight. last night's sleep was unusually good. better than i've had in a year. there were dreams of flying too which i don't think i've had since i was a kid. everything is very calm now - the old noodle is quieter than before. not so many thoughts at all really. this is all very nice though and well worth the effort to see, as simple and ordinary as it is.

i must thank you for sticking with me throughout this long thread. i got very lucky when you replied to my post! who knows how long this search might have gone on without your guidance? you put in some hard work and it is very much appreciated. hopefully i will find a way to pay it forward. everyone deserves to see the truth of this!

thanks again!!
.

[odemira]

You are very welcome, Ger!
Thanks for your dedication to looking at the simple truth.

On LU we have a set of questions that we ask, which are then looked at by 3 other guides who confirm that you have indeed passed through the gateless gate. After that you can if you wish have access to our aftercare group and go on to guide others, which it seems you'd like to.

So please answer these questions in depth (i know you've already answered part of this in yesterday's post, but please write again from the perspective of this moment!)

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who is very interested, but has never heard about this illusion.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

So pleased for you! As you say,

everyone deserves to see the truth of this!

Best wishes
Odemira

[GerryBeee]

hi odemira,

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

no, there is only an absence of me everywhere i look. all the things that seemed to be a part of me are actually a part of life. there never was a ger but there's plenty of not-ger round these parts! xD

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

the illusion is built on a belief in an entity that isn't actually there at all - something at the centre of life pulling everything together. i don't remember it starting - it seems to have always been there as far back as memory goes. but it can't have been there right at the beginning. the familiarity of this suggests that the brain originally functioned without a me - it's like finding an old pair of shoes you haven't worn in years and trying them on again. very familiar and natural.

3) How does it feel to see this?

life is a little smoother and there there seems to be less anxiety. also i am notably less reactive. my dad was acting quite inconsiderate this morning and that type of thing would usually get a story going about 'he never thinks about other people' or whatever, which would keep me angry enough to lose my temper - but instead there was no story and the anger just flashed for a few seconds and was gone. that is a nice unexpected benefit.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who is very interested, but has never heard about this illusion.

i'd tell them the things that made sense to me when i was looking. all the stuff you think is you isn't you at all - it's a part of the flow of life. also it is not possible for there to be a you standing outside of life to make things happen or to have things happen to.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

when the fear of losing control or that life would massively change was seen to be unfounded there was no reason any more not to really look at this thing properly. the fear can trick you into thinking your looking when really you're just spinning ideas and notions around in circles. also just coming back to the thread and having to plug away at this eventually yields fruit. the only way to fail in the end would be to give up. i'm pretty sure everyone would see this eventually if they stick with it.

thanks again odemira. have a great day!!