I'd like a guide to help make sure I'm through

[forgetmenot]

Hi Merri,

I am so sorry I did not post yesterday. I thought I was keeping up to date. I am still working on your assignments.

That is fine, Merri. I don't expect you to put aside your assignment to answer these questions. Your assignments are important. Just answer when you can. If you are going to be more than 3 days without answering...just let me know, so I know what is going on :)

I saw that my thoughts and previous labels had made up a lot of what my past experiences were.

Can you tell me more about this please?

When I said that my thoughts and previous labels made up a lot of my past experiences, I meant that I saw that I had not had very many AE experiences in the past, which is not surprising, but it is always interesting to come to a conclusion experientially instead of philosophicallly. Most of my experiences have been in my head, in my thoughts, and then the reminiscing of what I thought, instead of AE. I will do the thought exercise and get back to you.

Yes...we live in our head, so to speak. This exercise is good for getting out of the head and actually seeing what IS and how thought overlays AE with stories about AE.

Love, Kay

[Love4a11]

Hi Kay,

I don't have much time to write tonight so I just wanted to touch base with you. The exercises are proving to be very helpful in seeing. The exercise of looking at my thoughts was great. I will write more about it soon.

Thank you so much for your help! Have a wonderful day!

Love,
Merri

[forgetmenot]

Hey Merri....thank you for letting me know. Look forward to reading your next post.

Love, Kay

[Love4a11]

Hi Kay,

Well here is my response to that exercise:

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No I did not do anything and my thoughts just appear.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No, my thoughts have a momentum and energy of their own it seems.

Can you predict your next thought?

No I can’t predict my next thoughts and predicting is thinking too! So literally there is no way to make a certain thought be your next one!

Where are they coming from and going to?

It is fascinating to try to watch my thoughts. I cannot find a source of my thoughts and they don’t seem to go anywhere. As soon as I try to observe them they seem to diminish and disappear. Observational thinking which can slow to almost nothing and has a different texture, seems to take the place of thinking.

Can you push away any thought?

No, I can’t push away a thought with thinking. My thoughts can change but not by an absolute action by myself.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No, that is interesting too. I used to think that I could. But thoughts come and go like wind.

Is it possible to control any thoughts?

No I can’t control any thoughts. Trying to control just brings more awareness to that thought. If I wanted to have more discipline with my thoughts, I would try observing where they are coming from more and that is when they seem to dissipate.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No, is impossible to prevent a thought from appearing as I don’t know what thought will appear until it does.
This exercise was amazing as it was unlike meditation but had similarities to meditation. The experience for me is one of hearing the breeze of my thoughts flowing through and realizing that I have no idea where they come from.

Thank you Kay!

Sending you love,

Merri

[forgetmenot]

Hello Merri,

Lovely post! You did some amazing looking with thoughts....thank you! It's eye opening, isn't it, when you really observe and notice thought, to see that it is impossible to think thoughts....they just arise without anyone doing anything. If we were able to pick and choose thoughts, who in their right 'mind' would choose to have fearful, pleasant or negative thoughts?!

Okay...let's continue with looking at thoughts.

Find a TV team sport on TV or a Youtube clip that lasts for at least 5 minutes. The following link is to a game of soccer, but if you prefer another sport…please feel free to find one to do this exercise with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy5pL-myDzw

1. Watch one minute with the sound turned OFF, watching ‘people’ messing about with a round thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in, the whole experience.

2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON.

Notice the differences. Notice how the commentator (aka thought) offers lots of know-how, even advice, seems to feel as though they can influence somehow what is going on, as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome, the commentary may seem to heighten any supporter feelings which are there, and call for an identification with one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself.

3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible commentary, the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Again notice all the differences in what is appearing as experience.

4. Now turn the volume ON again and ignore what you think you know thought is talking about, and just notice it as sound.

Let me know what you notice when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening etc?

Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?

And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?


Love, Kay

[Love4a11]

Hi Kay!

Okay I watched the video:

Let me know what you notice when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening etc?

When the sound is on there is an automatic feeling of becoming more of a "participant" with this picture. Haha! The talking is also distracting to my true attention and gives a unsolicited story to the pictures.

When the sound is off I am observant and detached. I am just watching the game as if I am watching a pond ripple, curious, but knowing that it is happening without me having to do anything.

Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?

No, the commentary is not a necessity, actually it is more of a distraction from the happenings going on in the picture. The mind (thought) goes automatically to corroborate (or dispute) the story being told.

And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?

No, the inner narration is not a necessity for life to happen. Life is happening either way. This is confusing to me in a way because I am used to thinking that I controlled my thoughts and that they were absolutely necessary to get anything accomplished. But thoughts happen anyway and the overlay of more thoughts I’m beginning to see as empty filler. The narration is what the mind thinks it needs to do or does habitually. Thought seems to habitually think that it gives “life” to life.

Thank you so much Kay!

With love,
Merri

[forgetmenot]

Hi Merri,

Let me know what you notice when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening etc?

When the sound is on there is an automatic feeling of becoming more of a "participant" with this picture. Haha! The talking is also distracting to my true attention and gives a unsolicited story to the pictures.

When the sound is off I am observant and detached. I am just watching the game as if I am watching a pond ripple, curious, but knowing that it is happening without me having to do anything.

Lovely! Yes, with the sound off there is neutrality to what is going on, whereas with the sound on, emotions appear and you get sucked into the narration and all the hoo ha!

Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?

No, the commentary is not a necessity, actually it is more of a distraction from the happenings going on in the picture. The mind (thought) goes automatically to corroborate (or dispute) the story being told.

Yup, whatever is happening doesn’t need thought for it to happen! It’s quite hilarious when you watch thought…it seems to argue with itself, justify itself, defend itself, abuse itself, debate itself, have a discussion with itself!

And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?

No, the inner narration is not a necessity for life to happen. Life is happening either way. This is confusing to me in a way because I am used to thinking that I controlled my thoughts and that they were absolutely necessary to get anything accomplished. But thoughts happen anyway and the overlay of more thoughts I’m beginning to see as empty filler. The narration is what the mind thinks it needs to do or does habitually. Thought seems to habitually think that it gives “life” to life.

Great observations, Merri! If there is no commentary to ‘suck you in’, then everything is neutral. It is only the commentary that overlays what is appearing that seemingly gives meaning to what is happening and draws ‘you’ into the story of being a separate self. And if you noticed, the commentary is usually about what has happened, or what should happen (future) and what should or should not have happened, or did happen in the past!! So this is how it goes with the story about a character called ‘Merri’!

So is it clear that there is no thinker of thought and that there is no controller of thought either?

Let’s have a look at the idea of control and decision making.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Love, Kay

[Love4a11]

Hi Kay,

I just want you to know that today is a very busy day and I may not be able to respond. When I think about it, this weekend is going to be very busy in general. Is it okay if I respond on Monday?

Thank you so much for this experience.

Love,
Merri

[forgetmenot]

Yes Merri, that is fine and thank you for letting me know. By so doing I know you are going to be late in answering and not just dropping away.

Enjoy your weekend

Love, Kay

[Love4a11]

Hi Kay,

I am back! It is a busy time of year for me. I would guess that it is for you as well. Thank you so much for your time! So an answer to your last questions:

So is it clear that there is no thinker of thought and that there is no controller of thought either?

It is getting more clear. I still have the habit of thinking that “I think” and that “I am controlling my thoughts” but I am also seeing how life is just happening and is being expressed through my being with an overlay of a story and thoughts about my experience.

When it comes to moving and looking at moving my hand:

How is the movement controlled?

It seems that the movement is controlled by thinking of moving my hand and the habit of my body responding to thought.

Does a thought control it?

A thought does seem to control it. There are a series of thoughts of moving my hand that has a chain reaction.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No, there is not a controller that I can find.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

The decision is made to turn the hand over when the thought I will turn the hand over appears.

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

There is the thought that I will be turning the hand over. There is the curiosity (thinking) of watching the hand move. There is the thought “turn the hand over now”. Then the hand turns over.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No, there is not a separate individual that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down. It is the sight of the words to turn the hand over, the thought of agreeing with those words to turn my hand over, the thought of I will turn my hand over, and the thought of turn it over now.

Very interesting! This is challenging to see but useful!

Love,
Merri

[forgetmenot]

Hey Merri,

I am back! It is a busy time of year for me. I would guess that it is for you as well. Thank you so much for your time! So an answer to your last questions:

Yes! Shops are busy, roads are busy too! :)

So is it clear that there is no thinker of thought and that there is no controller of thought either?

It is getting more clear. I still have the habit of thinking that “I think” and that “I am controlling my thoughts” but I am also seeing how life is just happening and is being expressed through my being with an overlay of a story and thoughts about my experience.

Yes, those thought about being the thinker and controller will continue to appear, however if you LOOK each time (day in and day out) those thoughts appear to see if you can find a thinker or controller then you solidify the seeing of there being no one each time. This is the key. So when those thoughts appear, later on, they will simply be seen as thought.

How is the movement controlled?

It seems that the movement is controlled by thinking of moving my hand and the habit of my body responding to thought.

Hmmm…so have another look. And say to yourself you are going to move the hand, and see if it moves every time you say it; or are there times it doesn’t move? If not, then can thought actually be the controller?

Does a thought control it?

A thought does seem to control it. There are a series of thoughts of moving my hand that has a chain reaction.

As above

The words SEEMS equal thought. So either a thought controls the movement or doesn't. Please LOOK again and let me know what you find

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

The decision is made to turn the hand over when the thought I will turn the hand over appears.

LOOK again

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

There is the thought that I will be turning the hand over. There is the curiosity (thinking) of watching the hand move. There is the thought “turn the hand over now”. Then the hand turns over.

And when the thought “turn the hand over now” and the hand doesn’t turn…why not? Have you ever found yourself scratching an itch and not even being aware that the hand went to scratch until you noticed you were scratching?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No, there is not a separate individual that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down. It is the sight of the words to turn the hand over, the thought of agreeing with those words to turn my hand over, the thought of I will turn my hand over, and the thought of turn it over now.

For thought to be the catalyst of the hand mover means that there is cause and effect, which points to time and separation. There needs to be two thing for cause and effect and for something to follow something else.

Love, Kay

[Love4a11]

Hi Kay,

Okay I'm trying to see more...

Yes, those thought about being the thinker and controller will continue to appear, however if you LOOK each time (day in and day out) those thoughts appear to see if you can find a thinker or controller then you solidify the seeing of there being no one each time. This is the key. So when those thoughts appear, later on, they will simply be seen as thought.

That makes sense, thank you that is reassuring. It is a habit that seems real that we’ve thought all of our lives to consider ourselves the thinker and controller.

Hmmm…so have another look. And say to yourself you are going to move the hand, and see if it moves every time you say it; or are there times it doesn’t move? If not, then can thought actually be the controller?

No there is not movement with just the thought of moving it. And if thought is not the controller, I don't know what is. So I guess my first response was then that I don’t really see or understand how the movement is controlled. It is not as automatic as breathing, but still does seem automatic like scratching an itch, driving or typing. It seems to happen. Perhaps it is a reaction of sorts to circumstances that are put into play. All day today I noticed how things just happen into being, more than it seems thinking thought it into happening. The thoughts takes ownership. I still don’t quite understand how it can be automatic but it does seem that actions can be influenced by experiences.

Thanks!

Love,
Merri

[forgetmenot]

Hello Merri,

Hmmm…so have another look. And say to yourself you are going to move the hand, and see if it moves every time you say it; or are there times it doesn’t move? If not, then can thought actually be the controller?

No there is not movement with just the thought of moving it. And if thought is not the controller, I don't know what is. So I guess my first response was then that I don’t really see or understand how the movement is controlled. It is not as automatic as breathing, but still does seem automatic like scratching an itch, driving or typing. It seems to happen. Perhaps it is a reaction of sorts to circumstances that are put into play. All day today I noticed how things just happen into being, more than it seems thinking thought it into happening. The thoughts takes ownership. I still don’t quite understand how it can be automatic but it does seem that actions can be influenced by experiences.

So, can it just be that it is happening without anyone/anything controlling the movement?
If thought, actually was the controller, then everytime the thought to “turn hand over” appeared, the hand should turn! What chooses when that thought is obeyed and when it isn’t? Can anything be found that even does that?!



The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - A chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Love, Kay

[Love4a11]

Hi Kay,

So, can it just be that it is happening without anyone/anything controlling the movement?
If thought, actually was the controller, then everytime the thought to “turn hand over” appeared, the hand should turn! What chooses when that thought is obeyed and when it isn’t? Can anything be found that even does that?!

So yes, I am seeing that there is no controller. It feels confusing because then the thoughts of how and why things happen the way they do come up for me. But I realize that that is the thing that I have not completely understood. That things are happening and I don’t understand why, just like the wind blowing. It just is. Because I don’t understand in the way that I usually think, my mind fills in the blanks, afterward.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

Okay, the qualities appeared. There was no choosing of preferences, they just existed.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

I’m seeing that there is no choosing that I am creating.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or facultyn step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

There is no chooser. Just things and feelings happening.

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Yes, it feels like I am choosing. But feelings don’t seem to choose either. Feelings may lead to thoughts of choosing. I am seeing how the story of being the chooser and choosing is so second nature that I don’t even notice how when I look, that things actually happen before the thought. Everything does seem to be happening and I have a story that there is an “I” choosing and doing.
I am feeling like I am getting it more. Everything is just happening just like before, I just am changing and dropping the story about there being an I that does all these things.
Kay, I feel like I got this before and then I talked myself out of it. One day I woke up one morning and I felt like a newborn looking out the window. There was absolutely no story and just being. Then it slowly went back to normal thinking and I think what happened was the story telling feature of my thoughts came back, but not all the way. And I didn't have anyone to talk to about it. This is what led me to want to try to see more clearly.

Thank you Kay.

Love,
Merri

[forgetmenot]

Hello Merri,

So, can it just be that it is happening without anyone/anything controlling the movement?
If thought, actually was the controller, then everytime the thought to “turn hand over” appeared, the hand should turn! What chooses when that thought is obeyed and when it isn’t? Can anything be found that even does that?!

So yes, I am seeing that there is no controller. It feels confusing because then the thoughts of how and why things happen the way they do come up for me. But I realize that that is the thing that I have not completely understood. That things are happening and I don’t understand why, just like the wind blowing. It just is. Because I don’t understand in the way that I usually think, my mind fills in the blanks, afterward.

Thoughts will continue to appear saying the “I am going to choose to ……”, “my preferences are” etc. There has never been a separate self, and those thoughts appeared, so why would they change now?

How? Implies cause.
Why? Implies meaning.
Where? Implies space
When? Implies time.
What? Implies thingness.

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Yes, it feels like I am choosing. But feelings don’t seem to choose either. Feelings may lead to thoughts of choosing. I am seeing how the story of being the chooser and choosing is so second nature that I don’t even notice how when I look, that things actually happen before the thought. Everything does seem to be happening and I have a story that there is an “I” choosing and doing.

Either feelings choose of they don't. How would a feeling choose exactly? If the feeling is not an actual sensation, then it is just another idea. What is the AE of "feeling". "I feel that I should go left instead of right", is just another thought appearing with another thought saying "yes, there really is a feeling to go left instead of right, so I should follow my feelings".

What exactly is it that is thinking these thoughts, and what exactly is it that is following these "feeling" thoughts? What is it exactly that is 'tuned in' and using intuition?

I am feeling like I am getting it more. Everything is just happening just like before, I just am changing and dropping the story about there being an I that does all these things.

Where is this "I" that is "changing and dropping the story"? Describe this "I" to me and tell me where it is located.

Kay, I feel like I got this before and then I talked myself out of it. One day I woke up one morning and I felt like a newborn looking out the window. There was absolutely no story and just being. Then it slowly went back to normal thinking and I think what happened was the story telling feature of my thoughts came back, but not all the way. And I didn't have anyone to talk to about it. This is what led me to want to try to see more clearly.

There is no special state, Merri. There is no one who has been ‘asleep’ and who is awakening, and there is no you who ‘got it’ and then ‘lost it’. There is was no ‘you’ yesterday, there is no ‘you’ who is reading this now, and there will be no ‘you’ tomorrow. If you are waiting for the above to happen again as a marker that you are awake, then you will be waiting forever. Those states come and go, just like everything in the dream comes and goes. What change is your perception about what is appearing and happening…that is the marker, not personal or external events, emotions etc. Waking up in the morning and just being, is no different to waking up and feeling sad, or feeling happy. Happiness, sadness, bliss, silence, being are all state of being that comes and goes, and that is not what awakening is, that is a desire for you/life to be different and that is what suffering is.

Okay, one final look at the idea of choice. So, do you have any choice, whatsoever, about what you're aware of? If you think that you do, think about this:

If thoughts say, "I can change what I'm aware of by closing my eyes", and suddenly eyes seem to close, and you are aware of only colour black.
Did you REALLY have any choice about being aware of all of that?
Did you have any choice about being aware of the thoughts, or the apparent closing of eyes, or the colour black?
Could you have chosen not to have thoughts about closing eyes?
Could you have chosen for the colour to be green instead?
If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Love, Kay