Would like to finish the search.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Alan,

Before thought there is just a completely unlabelled image (areas of light, dark, colour). If I pause my my eyes on something there seems to be a knowing what that thing is, before I put a name to the thing. So, for example, if I look at the colour (image) of what is a door, there is sense of knowing what it is that seems to arrive before I think the word door.

Yes, how lovely. THIS/experience/awareness is self-aware so that 'sense of knowing' is experience knowing itself, no matter what it seemingly appears as (ie colour labelled door). It is only thought that then appears saying it is a 'door'. Without thought, could it ever be known that the 'colour' labelled 'door' is a actually a door?

I look forward to reading your responses to the thought exercise :)

Love, Kay

[safari]

Dear Kay,

Here is what I've found about thoughts so far.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought appear?

No, thoughts seems to arrive automatically.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No.

Where are they coming from and going to?

They are just coming and going, as if coming from and returning back to nowhere.

Can you predict your next thought?

No.

Can you push away any thought?

I'm not sure. I can suppress it by thinking other thoughts.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No.

Can you choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

No.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Yes, by choosing to deliberately think about something. Chocolate, for example!

Is it possible to control any thoughts?

I'm not sure, maybe I can change a thought by thinking other thoughts about it.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

No. When I first started observing thoughts, it seemed like there were no thoughts. But after a short while I started having thoughts about there being no thoughts!

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

The isn't an ordered sequence, but I did notice that a thought often arises in response to an AE. For example when I felt a sensation of cold I thought of cold and heating.

love, Alan

[forgetmenot]

Dear Alan,

Good job at looking at thought!

Can you push away any thought?

I'm not sure. I can suppress it by thinking other thoughts.

And how do you do that? How would you know to push away a thought unless another thought appeared saying so?

Please describe step by step, how you would bring forth other thoughts to think in place of the thought supposedly being pushed away?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Yes, by choosing to deliberately think about something. Chocolate, for example!

How do you deliberately think about something else? Is it not an appearing thought that appears saying “I am going to choose something else to think about”? And where did you go to get the thought about chocolate? How did you know you were going to bring forth the thought about chocolate instead? Where are these other thoughts stored for you to go to, to select the thought about chocolate?

If you are the thinker and chooser of thought, then why is it that you can’t just choose positive, kind, and happy thoughts?

Is it possible to control any thoughts?

I'm not sure, maybe I can change a thought by thinking other thoughts about it.

Did you actually look and see if you could do this, or you just summising?

Describe in detail, the process by which you create a thought, or make a choice. You have been doing it all your life apparently - so you must know exactly how you do it. So how do you do it? How do you create a thought? How do you think?

And again, where is this container of thought that you can go to, to start thinking other thoughts?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

No. When I first started observing thoughts, it seemed like there were no thoughts. But after a short while I started having thoughts about there being no thoughts!

Lol, yes! Nice :)

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

The isn't an ordered sequence, but I did notice that a thought often arises in response to an AE. For example when I felt a sensation of cold I thought of cold and heating.

So did you actually think those thoughts of cold and heating into appearing, or did they just appear?

Love, Kay

[safari]

Dear Kay,

I've done some more exploration of thought.

I can suppress a thought by thinking other thoughts.

And how do you do that? How would you know to push away a thought unless another thought appeared saying so?

Please describe step by step, how you would bring forth other thoughts to think in place of the thought supposedly being pushed away?

I take my comment back! Yes, to suppress a thought I first have a thought about wanting to suppess a thought. Then I have to have a thought about picking something else to think about instead etc. etc. etc. Like other thoughts, those thoughts seem to come from nowhere, the just arise automatically.

I can choose to deliberately think about something. Chocolate, for example!

How do you deliberately think about something else? Is it not an appearing thought that appears saying “I am going to choose something else to think about”? And where did you go to get the thought about chocolate? How did you know you were going to bring forth the thought about chocolate instead? Where are these other thoughts stored for you to go to, to select the thought about chocolate?

First I have to have a thought about thinking about something alse, then I have to have thought about using chololate etc. Those thoughts come automatically. I don't choose to have then, and I don't go to any thought store to get them. There is no thought store.

...maybe I can change a thought by thinking other thoughts about it.

Did you actually look and see if you could do this, or you just summising?

I wasn't using "thought" in the correct sense. I was thinking more about changing an opinion on something, which would involve a lot of additional thoughts and thinking, and which would do nothing to change that first thought!

Describe in detail, the process by which you create a thought, or make a choice. You have been doing it all your life apparently - so you must know exactly how you do it. So how do you do it? How do you create a thought? How do you think?

There is no process. Thought happen automatically. I don't control it.

And again, where is this container of thought that you can go to, to start thinking other thoughts?

There isn't one that I can find.

For example when I felt a sensation of cold I thought of cold and heating.

So did you actually think those thoughts of cold and heating into appearing, or did they just appear?

They just appeared, automatically, seemingly from nowhere.

This is getting more interesting. If all thought are arising automatically from nowhere, then so are my thoughts about seeking and ending the search. And this conversataion must be happening in response to thoughts that are occurring automatically.

What is happening here? Who is having the conversation? Alan and Kay or automatic thoughts???!!!

Not easy to get my head around some of this.

Are the only directly experienced things AE and automatic thoughts?

Love, Alan

[forgetmenot]

Hi Alan,

I've done some more exploration of thought.

Thank you….you certainly have….really nice exploring!

I can suppress a thought by thinking other thoughts.

And how do you do that? How would you know to push away a thought unless another thought appeared saying so?
Please describe step by step, how you would bring forth other thoughts to think in place of the thought supposedly being pushed away?

I take my comment back! Yes, to suppress a thought I first have a thought about wanting to suppess a thought. Then I have to have a thought about picking something else to think about instead etc. etc. etc. Like other thoughts, those thoughts seem to come from nowhere, the just arise automatically.

Yes! Have you ever noticed that when train of thought is happening about something specific; out the blue a random thought just pops up which has nothing to do with the schema of thoughts appearing? How would one do that, for example!

...maybe I can change a thought by thinking other thoughts about it.

Did you actually look and see if you could do this, or you just summising?

I wasn't using "thought" in the correct sense. I was thinking more about changing an opinion on something, which would involve a lot of additional thoughts and thinking, and which would do nothing to change that first thought!

LOL! And was there a you who actually found a thought to replace the changing opinion or did that also just appear?!

Describe in detail, the process by which you create a thought, or make a choice. You have been doing it all your life apparently - so you must know exactly how you do it. So how do you do it? How do you create a thought? How do you think?

There is no process. Thought happen automatically. I don't control it.

And what happens when you really take that on board, that you don’t control thought? Since you don’t control thought, can you control anything else?

This is getting more interesting. If all thought are arising automatically from nowhere, then so are my thoughts about seeking and ending the search. And this conversataion must be happening in response to thoughts that are occurring automatically.

Yes, exactly! However, just to throw a spanner in the works here, there is no cause and effect, as time does not exist either. But we will look at those later on.

What is happening here? Who is having the conversation? Alan and Kay or automatic thoughts???!!!

How is it known (ie what says) that what is happening is a conversation and that the seeming conversation is between two people?

Not easy to get my head around some of this.

Yes, because we are putting holes into beliefs that have been around since Adam was knee high to a grasshopper. Confusion, doubt, fear, resistance may start appearing, so just be aware and let me know if and when this happens.

Are the only directly experienced things AE and automatic thoughts?

Thoughts are actual experience. It is only another appearing thought that says thoughts are something special. Actual experience is everything, except the "content" of thought, because thought, in and of itself does not contain any experience. Thoughts either point to actual/direct experience or point to thoughts about AE or to further thought.

Here is another exercise that will help you investigate your questions above.

Find a TV team sport on TV or a Youtube clip that lasts for at least 5 minutes. The following link is to a game of soccer, but if you prefer another sport…please feel free to find one to do this exercise with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy5pL-myDzw

1. Watch one minute with the sound turned OFF, watching ‘people’ messing about with a round thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in, the whole experience.

2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON.

Notice the differences. Notice how the commentator (aka thought) offers lots of know-how, even advice, seems to feel as though they can influence somehow what is going on, as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome, the commentary may seem to heighten any supporter feelings which are there, and call for an identification with one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself.

3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible commentary, the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Again notice all the differences in what is appearing as experience.

4. Now turn the volume ON again and ignore what you think you know thought is talking about, and just notice it as sound.

Let me know what you notice when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening etc?

Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?

And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?

Love, Kay

[safari]

Dear Kay,

There is no process. Thought happens automatically. I don't control it.

And what happens when you really take that on board, that you don’t control thought? Since you don’t control thought, can you control anything else?

Since thought seems to precede every action, if I don't control thought then I can't control anything else either.

However, just to throw a spanner in the works here, there is no cause and effect, as time does not exist either. But we will look at those later on.

I"m already more or less there with time not existing (always the "eternal now") but cause and effect is more tricky for me. If there is only "now", I can see that it follows that there must be no cause (past) and effect (present or future), but at the same time I know that if I throw a ball against a wall it will bounce back. All thoughts sure, but I do seem to be able to think in advance about something that does then happen.

How is it known (ie what says) that what is happening is a conversation and that the seeming conversation is between two people?

Conversation is a lable for this process, which involves many many AE and many many thoughts. You and I are lables for some sort of processing involving AE and thoughts.

Sports experiment:

Let me know what you notice when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening etc?

Without sound, there is visual AE of colours. WIth thought I give my own internal commentary about what is happening, e.g that was a goal, she was offside etc. Without thought there is just changing AE of colours/images.

Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?

No, the game happens without any commentary (either from the "official" commentator or from myself).

And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?

No. there is no need for me to narrate my life. It happens as it does.

Yesterday and this morning, I experinced episodes where my AE (direct experience of the world) seemed to move to the forefront and thinikng was very much in the background. I have had this before, and feel it is related to some sort of awareness of the "gateless gate" and the simplicity of living without a self in control. However, when this happens I find myself comparing and assessing this experience with my usual experience of life. I know that this assessing means that the self is still around, but I don't know how to just let everything be and get myself fully out of the way, so to speak. I hope this makes sense in some way or another, but that is the best way I can describe what happens.

love, Alan

[forgetmenot]

Dear Alan,

There is no process. Thought happens automatically. I don't control it.
And what happens when you really take that on board, that you don’t control thought? Since you don’t control thought, can you control anything else?

Since thought seems to precede every action, if I don't control thought then I can't control anything else either.

And when you say that out loud to yourself, what happens in the body? Does a sensation appear, does it feel light or heavy, does fear appear?

However, just to throw a spanner in the works here, there is no cause and effect, as time does not exist either. But we will look at those later on.

I"m already more or less there with time not existing (always the "eternal now") but cause and effect is more tricky for me. If there is only "now", I can see that it follows that there must be no cause (past) and effect (present or future), but at the same time I know that if I throw a ball against a wall it will bounce back. All thoughts sure, but I do seem to be able to think in advance about something that does then happen.

Yes, of course in the dream time seemingly plays out. But when it is seen that one thing does not affect another thing, then no matter is a ball thrown against a wall bounces back, it is known that there is no cause and effect, just like a thought does not create a sensation or vice versa.

Here is an interesting exercise in how labels do not have a one-to-one correspondence with reality:

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?
Is the colour red experienced, or is the colour green experienced as the label suggests?
Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’?
Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here and now (red colour)?
Is green-ness inherent attributes of the experience of the colour red, or is green just a word label on the experience of the colour red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?
Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

How is it known (ie what says) that what is happening is a conversation and that the seeming conversation is between two people?

Conversation is a lable for this process, which involves many many AE and many many thoughts. You and I are lables for some sort of processing involving AE and thoughts.

How is it known that what is happening is a conversation between two people? Because an appearing thought says so!

What is the AE of these type written words?

And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?
No. there is no need for me to narrate my life. It happens as it does.

Did you notice how the muted video left you rather neutral towards the apparent happenings on screen, while the commentary version of the game kind of sucked you into the story that the commentator was telling? And did you also notice that muted watching was more about the current action whilst the commentator was mostly referring to what just happened. So this is how it goes with the story about a character called ‘Alan’!

Yesterday and this morning, I experinced episodes where my AE (direct experience of the world) seemed to move to the forefront and thinikng was very much in the background. I have had this before, and feel it is related to some sort of awareness of the "gateless gate" and the simplicity of living without a self in control. However, when this happens I find myself comparing and assessing this experience with my usual experience of life. I know that this assessing means that the self is still around, but I don't know how to just let everything be and get myself fully out of the way, so to speak. I hope this makes sense in some way or another, but that is the best way I can describe what happens.

There is no “my AE”. You don’t have AE for you that is different to AE of others. There is no ‘you’ or others. It is simply AE with no ownership.

What is the AE of “assessing”? Can you find anyone/anything that is in control of thoughts that are appearing that are labelled as “assessing/comparing”?

How do you get a non-existent self “fully out of the way”? There has NEVER EVER been a separate self….NEVER, so there is no “I” to get rid of – there is no “I” that is still around! What is actually appearing? Everything you wrote is AE of thought and nothing more. Can you find anything that you wrote that points to any AE except AE of thought?

There is nothing here in actual experience that is separate from experience. Just this. Always now.

If you want to test this, simply do this little experiment that won't even take much of your time. All you need is 20 minutes, a pen and paper.

First write what you are experiencing right now using words “I” and “me”. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of here now.

Like this-
I am laying in bed. I am hearing the rain, I am typing these words, I am thinking

Do it for 10 minutes. Watch the body; are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing?

Then for next 10 minutes write without words “I” and “me”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs:

Typing, breathing, blinking, hearing rain, writing, thinking

Again watch what is happening in the body.

Now compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other? If so, which one? What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Love, Kay

[safari]

Dear Kay,

Since thought seems to precede every action, if I don't control thought then I can't control anything else either.

And when you say that out loud to yourself, what happens in the body? Does a sensation appear, does it feel light or heavy, does fear appear?

There is sense of feeling lighter and less tense. As if a responsibility has been taken away.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

Colour, with a thought saying red

Is the colour red experienced, or is the colour green experienced as the label suggests?

The colour red is experienced.

Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’?

No, despite the label "green" the colour seen is red.

Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here and now (red colour)?

Yes, the label suggests "green" which is not here now.

Is green-ness inherent attributes of the experience of the colour red, or is green just a word label on the experience of the colour red?

Green is just a word label on the experience of the colour red.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

No. The redness is not affected in any way.

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

The labels have no effect whatsoever on "reality".

What is the AE of these type written words?

Seeing, colour. (Black and white, or blue and white)

What is the AE of “assessing”? Can you find anyone/anything that is in control of thoughts that are appearing that are labelled as “assessing/comparing”?

The AE of assessing is thought. Thoughts appear automatically.

How do you get a non-existent self “fully out of the way”? There has NEVER EVER been a separate self….NEVER, so there is no “I” to get rid of – there is no “I” that is still around! What is actually appearing? Everything you wrote is AE of thought and nothing more. Can you find anything that you wrote that points to any AE except AE of thought?

No. It's all thought, the AE of thought.

With and without 'I" and "Me":

Now compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other? If so, which one? What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

The one without labels is truer. What is here without labels is just what is here. Labels don't change the experience at all, they just add extra words to it. The underlying experience is exactly the same whether there are extra labels added or not.

Love, Alan

(PS I sent you a PM earlier today, in case you haven't seen it, Alan)

[forgetmenot]

Hey Alan,

Nice post….you are doing great guns! (That is a funny saying isn’t it?! I must look it up, one day, to see where is comes from!)

Since thought seems to precede every action, if I don't control thought then I can't control anything else either.
And when you say that out loud to yourself, what happens in the body? Does a sensation appear, does it feel light or heavy, does fear appear?

There is sense of feeling lighter and less tense. As if a responsibility has been taken away.

Beautiful.

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

The labels have no effect whatsoever on "reality".

Yes, so can you see how this is the same for what actually IS ie actual experience? It doesn’t matter if thought, for example, labels sound as ‘birdsong’, it doesn’t change or affect sound in any way. And it doesn’t matter if thought labels colour as ‘person’, it doesn’t change or affect colour in any way.

What is the AE of these type written words?

Seeing, colour. (Black and white, or blue and white)

Yes, so what is the AE of spoken/verbal ‘thoughts’?

Now compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other? If so, which one? What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

The one without labels is truer. What is here without labels is just what is here. Labels don't change the experience at all, they just add extra words to it. The underlying experience is exactly the same whether there are extra labels added or not.

Exactly! :)

(PS I sent you a PM earlier today, in case you haven't seen it, Alan)

Yes, thank you, I have seen it and sent you a response :)

Okay, so let’s have a deeper look at the idea of control, choice and decisions.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Love, Kay

[safari]

Hi Kay,

Nice post….you are doing great guns!

Thank you. It is getting easier for me to identify the AE.

Yes, so what is the AE of spoken/verbal ‘thoughts’?

The AE of spoken/verbal thoughts is thought. Similarly, the AE of an imagined image is thought.

Turning the hand over and back:

How is the movement controlled?

Thought tells me that it is somehow controlled by me, but I cannot find any thought that is controlling it.

Does a thought control it?

I cannot find a controlling thought, either just before the hand starts or move, or while it is moving.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

The decision isn't occuring in thought. I can't find a thought that makes the decision to turn the hand over.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No, I can't find a separate individual who turns the hand over. It's as if the hand starts turning by itself.

Love, Alan

[forgetmenot]

Hi Alan,

Nice looking with the concept of there being a ‘you’ who is in control of what is happening.

Yes, so what is the AE of spoken/verbal ‘thoughts’?

The AE of spoken/verbal thoughts is thought. Similarly, the AE of an imagined image is thought.

Words (thoughts) that are seemingly spoken out loud are AE of sound and not AE of thought. There are thoughts ABOUT spoken words being thought, but if you had no idea that the sounds were supposedly verbal thoughts, then what is actually appearing is sound.

Let’s have a further look at the idea of control, choices and decisions.

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - A chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Love, Kay

[safari]

G'day Kay,

How is it in Oz, usually very hot at this time of year. I spent a while there some years ago, and remember going to the beach on Christmas Day!

Yes, so what is the AE of spoken/verbal ‘thoughts’?

The AE of spoken/verbal thoughts is thought. Similarly, the AE of an imagined image is thought.

Words (thoughts) that are seemingly spoken out loud are AE of sound and not AE of thought.

I've gone back and examined verbal thoughts again. I can see that they are similar in away to actual sound (as if I spoke the verbal thoughts out loud), but at the same time an imagined sound has a different quality to it that an actual sound. I can tell one from the other.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

The qualities popped up by themselves as thoughts.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

The preferences went into the background whilst I was counting. This happened automatically, I did not choose for this to happen. I could not find a choosing function in action.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

They was no identifiable chooser. It was as if I didn't know which choice I was making until the hand was moving towards one or other glass. Weird but true!

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Nope, a feeling can't choose.

Love, Alan

[forgetmenot]

Good morning Alan,

How is it in Oz, usually very hot at this time of year. I spent a while there some years ago, and remember going to the beach on Christmas Day!

Yes, it is hot and humid and Christmas day is going to be the same….definitely not my favourite season. The air conditioner has been getting a work out the last couple of days :(

Words (thoughts) that are seemingly spoken out loud are AE of sound and not AE of thought.

I've gone back and examined verbal thoughts again. I can see that they are similar in away to actual sound (as if I spoke the verbal thoughts out loud), but at the same time an imagined sound has a different quality to it that an actual sound. I can tell one from the other.

Yes, lovely, what is labelled as ‘voice’ is AE of sound and not AE of verbalised thoughts. It is only a thought that is trying describe sound and sound is experience and experience is indescribable. Try and describe the sound known as wind blowing through the leaves as if to a deaf person!

So, it was clearly seen that there is no one/no thing that is choosing or deciding, as well as there is no one/no thing that is controlling or thinking and that it is just all happening on its own?

So, keeping that in mind, let’s look at the body.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc.) before replying.

Love, Kay

[safari]

Hi Kay,

experience is indescribable

Yes, I'm fully there with this. The raw experience just IS. I don't need to do anything for the raw experience to be there. It's already there.

So, it was clearly seen that there is no one/no thing that is choosing or deciding, as well as there is no one/no thing that is controlling or thinking and that it is just all happening on its own?

Yes, I clearly saw this. It is happening by itself.

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?

Neither can be known from the actual experience alone.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

In the actual experience the body does not have a shape or form. There is just a collection of various experiences such as sound, touch, pressure, smell.

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

With eyes closed I could not find a distinct edge between inside and outside. The pressure/touch from my clothing and teh chair I was sitting on felt as if they were actually part of me.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
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"Body" is a thought or label. We use the label "body" to define what we believe to be our separate physical selves. In acctual experience, no separate "body" can be found. There is just a collection of actual experiences.

Love, Alan

[safari]

Hi again Kay,

Just adding that yesterday evening "I" experienced a period of complete selflessness. Everything was present, but there was no-one experiencing it.

:-)

Alan