Emptiness is the track on which the centred person moves. - Tsongkhapa.

[Nina45]

Hi Iain!

LOOK at typing.

What is moving the fingers?
What comes first - thought or the finger movements?

What is understanding this sentence?
Is there any interpretation of this words that can be found in actual experience?

Can a link be found between the thoughts and the movement of the fingers? The typing?
Or does the connection between thought and movement have to be assumed?

Best wishes

Nina

[IainB]

Hi Nina,

What is moving the fingers?
What comes first - thought or the finger movements?

I seem to do a lot of typing so this is a good place for me to look.

The fingers move in rhythm with a dialogue or internal narrative that seems to hang in the internal space of my mind.
As for who, there is the sensation of my fingers on the keys that links with thoughts. There is contemplations, thought emerges and finger action takes place. At times it is so quick they seem almost simultaneous.

What is understanding this sentence?

Understanding is taking place. Understanding triggers thoughts that spill out in many directions, following familiar paths. This familiarity of thought patterns seems to love to marry up with an assumption of Me...another thought / feeling that envelops some thoughts.

Is there any interpretation of this words that can be found in actual experience?

This seems important but I don't quite get this pointer. The interpretation and understanding rests within a strong sense of the personal I hold.

Can a link be found between the thoughts and the movement of the fingers? The typing?
Or does the connection between thought and movement have to be assumed?

This seems important. The finger movement is an attempt to release a narrow channel of thought out into the world. Again, I'm not quite grasping this.

Some of this is going over my head...I may need a somewhat dumbed down approach...or maybe this is good as it is pushing at the edge of my ability to see, think and evaluate what is going on.

Love, Iain

[Nina45]

Hi Iain,

The questions asked are really, really simple if answered from direct experience! Thought is offering 'helpful theories' ..... but these are not helpful for this process.

I seem to do a lot of typing so this is a good place for me to look.

Great! Let's keep looking at what is typing.

The fingers move in rhythm with a dialogue or internal narrative that seems to hang in the internal space of my mind.

In direct experience, is it possible to find an 'internal space' where the mind lives?
Have a good look for the mind. Is it possible to find it? What does it look like?

As for who, there is the sensation of my fingers on the keys that links with thoughts. There is contemplations, thought emerges and finger action takes place. At times it is so quick they seem almost simultaneous.

Great. Thought happens and fingers move almost simultaneously. Keep watching this. Can a 'me' be found in this process? Or is there just thought and fingers moving?

Understanding is taking place. Understanding triggers thoughts that spill out in many directions, following familiar paths. This familiarity of thought patterns seems to love to marry up with an assumption of Me...another thought / feeling that envelops some thoughts.

Do thoughts require a thinker?
Or do thoughts just happen?

Is it possible to see where thoughts come from?
Is it possible to see where thoughts go to?

The interpretation and understanding rests within a strong sense of the personal I hold.

Wonderful to notice this.
Read this sentence. Read this too.
What is understanding exactly?
Where is the Iain that is understanding this?

Does understanding just happen or is an Iain required?

Very best wishes

Nina
Xxx

[IainB]

Dear Nina,

Have a good look for the mind. Is it possible to find it? What does it look like?

It does feel like mind is an assumption. There seems to be two distinct worlds, the physical one, and the intangible mind. There is a lot of energetic thought going on somewhere but the idea that it takes places in some non physical space inside my body would seem to be an attempt to assign some realness to that which is not real, or at least not real like the physical world.

Can a 'me' be found in this process [typing]? Or is there just thought and fingers moving?

Thuoghts and finger movement only, but there is a busyness, a flavour to my thoughts that I seem desperate to nurture and hold onto. Some long held assumptive pattern held in place by routine and fear.

do thoughts just happen?

Thuoghts simply are. They pour forth from nothingness and go nowhere, a brief flicker on the thin layer of consciousness that hangs in front of the physical world.

Where is the Iain that is understanding this?

Seemingly not to be found. That pervasive sense of the personal does love to persist though.

Sorry for the delay in replying. I'm also now away for 48 hours for a shamanic retreat.

Much love and blessings.

[IainB]

That pervasive sense of the personal...

This really needs to read as that Sensation of the personal. Sensations certainly happen, but there is no I there doing any sensing.

xXx

[Nina45]

Hi Iain,

I how the retreat was good!

Is it possible to focus is 'experience' rather than 'the physical world'?

This is an inquiry into experience. This is not to deny a physical world ..... But we only know about it as experience:
Sound
Colour
Smell
Taste
Sensation

And the experience of thought.

'Sense of the personal' or 'sensation of the personal' ....

Have a look at this. Have a look directly at sensation. What makes it 'personal'?
Is it 'my sensation'?
Or is the sensation evidence if 'me'?
Or is it sensation with an interpretation added?


Lots of love

Nina
Xxx

[IainB]

Hi Nina,

Sensation happens. There feels to be a Me hovering around that sensation owning it, and responding to it.

When I look for that Me though, there is a suspicious lack of anything concrete. In fact, there is just a bubble of thoughts, feelings and memories where Me was assumed to live.

That assumption of a stream of Me continuity hides within my mind, always just out of sight but always making it’s presence felt.

In truth though, there is nothing personal about the sensations I feel. They are felt, and separately there is a assumption that there is an personal experiencer like an added flavour that needs to flow around sensation, and runs alongside, almost inside thoughts.

Even when I sit poised for the next sensation, feeling or thought, that poised consciousness feels like a Me ready to experience.

Is it 'my sensation'?

Not initially at the point of experience. At first it feels like energy happening. Then quickly it is subsumed into something happening to Me.

Or is the sensation evidence if 'me'?

I don’t think so. Although Me likes to grab sensation, take ownership, concern itself with sensation and then regurgitate it as a part of itself and a reason to perpetuate itself.

Or is it sensation with an interpretation added?

Very much so. Sensation is not me. I am not the experience of the fingers and keys moving. I am not the thought of an object. Me likes to muscle in there: another distinct and well known internal sensation. It’s as though if it didn’t, I would lose the continuity of My story, the interpreter and narrative driver would vanish!

I'm relishing emersing myself in my ignorance of an assumed I. It feels very present. I hope it will lead somewhere. How wonderful it would be to not try to deny or extinguish that I, but see it for what it really is.

Love, Iain

[Nina45]

Hi Iain!

Great reply. It sounds like a real getting to grips with sensation being only sensation.

Look at this:

That assumption of a stream of Me continuity hides within my mind, always just out of sight but always making it’s presence felt.

Please look for the 'mind'. Please dive into experience and really look for it.
Does it have a location?
Does it have a sensation?
Does it have colour or shape?
Does mind have a taste?
Is there any evidence of mind other than a thought about it?

Have a really good look!


Best of luck

Nina
XXX

P.s. if there is a sense of motivation now, please reply every day!!

[IainB]

Hi Nina,

Please look for the 'mind'. Please dive into experience and really look for it.

It's easy to apply a term (mind), then give an imagined place to My collection of internal experiences. I've lived with an easy assumption that there is a dark internal void that is the place where my memories reside, and thoughts come from. After all, the I that is separate from the body needs somewhere to live!

Thoughts appear. I imagine them appearing within such an imagined internal place floating around my skull, throat or upper chest, but this itself is just another idea.

There seems to be a division between the experience of the external world and an internal world of responses, thoughts and ideas triggered by the external world. The external world has a multitude of characteristics, experienced internally as sounds, colours, smells, tastes and sensations.

Then there is my dialogue of thoughts, concepts and emotions. It's tempting to assume that these emerge from that dark void, but I think this is just my need to create an imagined physical world for that which has no form.

There is experience, but there is no mind to find separate from thought, sounds, colours, smells, tastes, sensations. I try to look for it, but I can't see the un-seeable. Experience is simply experience, it doesn't need a thought machine to produce it, or an experience store room for thoughts or memories waiting to be released, or to return to after being experienced.

P.s. if there is a sense of motivation now, please reply every day!!

I cherish your guidance and aspire to be a better guide-ee. What distracts me: fear of losing my self; frustration at my inability to see; anger that I'm in a reality framed by ignorance that I have to work to resolve; a lingering disbelief that I can be free, indulgence in familiar patterns and delusions that drain my energy to look...

Love, Iain

[Nina45]

Hi Iain,

Thanks for describing the deep dark void of the imagination where the mind dwells!

What happens when you read the following?

"giraffe"

"Iain"

"Library"

"Santa"

?

What understands the words?
Are there thought images?
Are there thoughts?

Does any of the thoughts have a greater value?
Are any of the thoughts any more real?

Very best wishes
Nina
Xxx

[IainB]

Dear Nina,

What happens when you read the following?

The pattern of the text appears on the page. This elicits a mental image, either a generic visualisation of that word, or a more specific one with added features.

What understands the words?

The visualisation itself seems to be the understanding. The words readily become images as the text transforms into something meaningful and understandable.

Are there thought images?
Are there thoughts?

The word may hang in the mind, or the image, but not at the same time. Words become images.

There is a poised consciousness there ready to play with words and images. The ideas of these things appear when summoned, then drift off.

Does any of the thoughts have a greater value?

Iain thoughts hold a particular relevance...the familiarity of the idea image of Iain. A familiar face and shape appears suggesting Iain. But as for value...can one thought image be more valuable than another? They feel equal as colourful compositions in my mind.

Giraffes are out there somewhere.
Library is an idea understood as a building.
Santa is a colourful fantasy person.
Iain has particular relevance.

Are any of the thoughts any more real?

But as thoughts they feel equal as they are summoned, a colourful shaped mental idea object, kind of equal whether real or unreal.

Love, Iain

[Nina45]

HI Iain,

Sorry for the delay. I am afraid I loose motivation when there are long gaps between posts.

However, a Zen Stick may help us both! Let's see what happens.

What happens when you read the following?

The pattern of the text appears on the page. This elicits a mental image, either a generic visualisation of that word, or a more specific one with added features.

This is a story.
What actually happens when you read this?

What understands the words?

The visualisation itself seems to be the understanding. The words readily become images as the text transforms into something meaningful and understandable.

This is also a story or a theory.
What actually happens when this is read?
Is there a gap between seeing and understanding in Direct Experience?

There is a poised consciousness there ready to play with words and images. The ideas of these things appear when summoned, then drift off.

Where on earth is the "poised consciousness"?
Have a look for it.
Please report on where it is exactly.
Does it have existence outside imagination?

Does any of the thoughts have a greater value?

Iain thoughts hold a particular relevance...the familiarity of the idea image of Iain. A familiar face and shape appears suggesting Iain. But as for value...can one thought image be more valuable than another? They feel equal as colourful compositions in my mind.

Great! "They feel equal as colourful compositions". But thoughts seem very convincing:

Giraffes are out there somewhere.
Library is an idea understood as a building.
Santa is a colourful fantasy person.
Iain has particular relevance.

Read this: "Giraffe"
Do you see an image of the giraffe?
Or does the thought story "Giraffes are out there somewhere" arrive?

"Giraffes are out there somewhere" is a story because there is not a Giraffe with you in the room now. In Direct Experience Giraffe is a mental image (not real) or a part of a story (not real).

Look at Library
Santa
and Iain
again

Are any of the thoughts any more real?

But as thoughts they feel equal as they are summoned, a colourful shaped mental idea object, kind of equal whether real or unreal.

This is great Iain! this answer is almost clear!
Have a look again and become really clear about whether thoughts are real or not.

Lots of Love

Nina

[IainB]

Dear Nina,

This is a story.
What actually happens when you read this?

Sure, time to move away from those "helpful theories". I experience the object. I see the object. Words trigger an experience of the object fro me.

This is also a story or a theory.
What actually happens when this is read?

Experiencing the object is a simultaneous experience of seeing and understanding. There are no "words" seperate from the understanding of the object.

Where on earth is the "poised consciousness"?
Have a look for it.
Please report on where it is exactly.
Does it have existence outside imagination?

Consciousness does seem to exist for me. There is an alertness that is either focused on a thought, or awaiting for a thought to arrive.

Love, Iain

[IainB]

Dear Nina,

Have a look again and become really clear about whether thoughts are real or not.

I have taken giraffe, library, santa and Iain as my mantra.

The thought images flicker. Stripped of any narrative they do seem less real.

The thought of Iain does carry a heavier footprint though.

Love, Iain

[Nina45]

The thought of Iain carries a heavier footprint.

Please have a look at a thought of Iain.

Where is the heavy footprint?

Is the thought somehow heavy?

Or is there a heavy sensation.

Is there a sensation making the thought convincing?

Have a look.