Hi J,
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
In my experience there is sensation in the body and thoughts - me, I, self but they have lost their power. They are just words equal to tree, computer, water etc. Occasionally, 'I', 'Me' attaches to the sensations and it appears there is a 'me' but this is easily seen through by nearly instant looking.
Where exactly is the I/me who is getting attached? How can an illusory I or me, no matter if they are inverted commas or not, attach to anything? There is a story ABOUT a me that SEEMS to be getting attached to a sensation, however are you not fully aware of that story, as stories are made up of thought. And are you not fully aware of the sensations and the stories ABOUT those sensations?
There is no attachment to ‘your’ stories or to the story about an “I” labelled Jeannet.
Your = thought story
Attachment = thought story, riding piggyback on the 'your' thought story.
Thought referring to thought.
Simply notice the story about the story.
See if you're actually in it.
And see if it's actually yours
Was there ever?
I have no way of knowing. I can guess or speculate but there is only here and now. I could make up a story using logic i.e. that there can't have been but that would be just a story.
If the I/me is an illusory character; illusory meaning non-existent, not real, just as Santa Claus is, then how could there ever have been a separate self anywhere at anytime?
For there to have been one is pointing to the ‘past’ and is there such a thing as the ‘past’?
3) How does it feel to see this?
Nothing has really changed except the silence is very present.
So perceptions haven’t changed at all?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Peace, lack of concern (mostly), a knowing that everything is just happening. But not quite at the stage that I can see it is happening by itself.
And what would "see it is happening by itself" look like exactly? There is an expectation here..what is it?
5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
This is still not entirely clear. For example, there was still a decision made not to buy the 4WD. The Looking tells me that there was no me deciding and it just happened but there is still doubt even though I cannot find anyone who could be doing the deciding. Quite a conundrum actually.
Why would the idea that decisions are being made change? It seems there are expectations that aren’t been met and because of this, there is doubt about what has been seen.
The idea of a decider isn’t going to disappear, however, it becomes a knowing that there is no decider, no matter what thoughts appear saying there is.
The label ‘doubt’ is AE of thought, not AE of doubt
The thoughts about ‘doubt’ are AE of thought and not AE of doubt
The sensations labelled ‘doubt’ are AE of sensation and not AE of doubt
The image/colour labelled ‘I/me/body’ is AE of colour and not AE of doubt
So what is actually appearing is sensation + colour + label/thought. Can a doubter be found in sensation, colour, label/thoughts?
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
It appears that 'I' am making things happen but I can't find who or what is doing that. There is still a reluctance to accept a lack of agency.
What is it exactly that is reluctant to “accept a lack of agency”? And where is this “I” located?
c) What are you responsible for?
Thoughts happen, decisions happen. There is still a pattern of taking ownership. But again I can't find the who or what that could take ownership. It could be just a story, a habit.
Ummm…”it could be just a story, a habit”. LOOK and check!
6) Anything to add?
There is a concern that this deep silence/peace is just a byproduct of meditation. I have experienced this silence before. I spent sometime this morning trying to generate a 'me' while meditating but it could not be done. Just sensations and thoughts that had no impact or life. However, there is still a sense of being (which I believe will always be here) and seeing the world from here. The sense of not seeing the world from here is an expectation I have based on previous awakening experiences.
And you hit the nail right on the head that the “previous awakening” is only an experience, and it is the desire and expectation that seeing through the separate self will bring about a never ending deep silence/peace, so you can live happily ever after in Cinderella land! Experiences come and go, just as do silences, just as the toing and froing with the idea of an “I”. Which will continue to happen for some time.
Silence is no different to sound. Only thought says some 'thing' isn't there. Darkness is just a colour, like any other, no different from light. Thought labels darkness as the absence of some 'thing' but it is no less knowing/known than light is.
Empty space is no different to solid matter, it is still a some 'thing', not a lack of some 'thing' . THIS is never empty of missing anything.
There is also still a lot of body tensions happening.
Where is this body? Describe it to me! There is an expectation that when seeing through the illusory self that ‘body’ sensations should no longer happen? Well, they don’t disappear forever, just like thoughts don’t disappear forever. However, the perception of them changes, because it is known that all that is appearing is sensation + label/thoughts about the sensation.
I would say that the agency thing is still a sticking point even though there is no 'me' to be found. What the...?????
I don’t think that the agency thing is the sticking point. It is your expectations of what you were hoping would happen when the illusory self was seen through, and your expectations on how that would look etc that is the sticking point. You wrote above that “the sense of not seeing the world from here is an expectation I have based on previous awakening experiences” and your previous awakening experience was not it, if it were you wouldn’t be here at LU. Trying to recapture experiences that, to you, is what the awakening experience should be is a hindrance because if it doesn’t look like what you want/expect it to look like, then nothing else will do.
You wrote the following as one of your answers when you registered for the forum…and this is what you are wanting to happen.
“A spontaneous awakening 20 years ago has left me trying anything and everything. Have had some success with some practices such as awareness practices, headless way, insight meditation and other things. Currently not subscribed to any particular practice but meditation has become a strong habit using choiceless awareness”.
What would it feel like not to be a person? What it 'feels like' right now, is what it 'feels like' to not be a person. But thought doesn't know that, hence the 'expectation'.
Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
