Hello

[BarryG]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That what we have is just experience, and there is an instinctive assumption that there is a 'self' that 'has' the experience, but when we look at our experience, that 'self' cannot be found. 'Seeing' this is an incremental process, like a contemplation, that builds over time and frees energy, allows life to flow unhindered.

What are you looking for at LU?
To deepen my understanding of the above, through the discipline of being questioned. I kind of 'know' some of the basic ideas, but without being prompted, I don't actually look. So I'm hoping this will help.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect to be asked to investigate my experience and my understanding of it, and to reply to questions, which will then prompt further questions, which will gradually contribute to a realisation that my sense of self is evanescent, illusory.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I spent 18 years as part of a Buddhist organisation, which of course had the theory of no-self, but which in practice affirmed that illusion in many ways by leading people to feel they had real accomplishment purely on the grounds of the position they held. So leaving helped to start to demolish that way of thinking. Also years of meditation, and since then writing, have helped. Meditation has I think helped me be more open to my experience. Thinking and writing have helped me not take concepts too seriously, they can be useful, but need to be danced around. I'm also often thinking about how the world is Mind created, brain created if you like, and needs to be related to as such.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
8

[Little Lion]

Hi Barry,

is that your name or how you want to be called? If not, what is?

I liked your post. Maybe because you seem to have seen plenty of (more than) the basics already. Let's test that. I might be wrong in that assumption, you might be wrong in the assumption that you need guidance :-)

Anyway: Imagine yourself at the end of this conversation. It has brought you what you most wanted/needed. What is that? What will you have (or have lost) because of this conversation? How will your life be different afterwards?

Curious to hear your reply!
Warm greetings
Leonie (from the Netherlands)

[BarryG]

Hello Leonie,

Yes, Barry is my name :)

Thanks for your response. I left organised Buddhism 18 years ago - I do astrology and shamanism nowadays - but I've recently been making my peace with budddhism again, I love the teachings. I'm at www.astrotabletalk.blogspot.com.

Anyway, it's such a pain having a 'self', because it gets in the way. I get into stupid and painful states around whether I'm 'achieving' enough with 'my' life, instead of just living it and feeling the joy of just living it. And that is the same with any painful state - anxiety, anger etc - I identify with them, I swirl around in their endless loops. And then I remember to disidentify, and then I'm not in the grip of this stuff, at least not so much. And meditation also takes me out of all this stuff into somewhere that is light and joyous, and it's such a relief, it brings me close to my spirit.

So what do I want out of this process? I guess it's a firmer sense that this 'self' is illusory, and by the same token a firmer sense that I am living in what is real, instead of the illusion that seems to come so naturally. And I see this process as beginning with the analytical mind, searching with the mind for the self within my experience and not finding it. But then that deepening into a felt sense of there being no self, and therefore no-one to take so seriously all that usual stuff that swirls around that doesn't have much to do with anything when you think about it. So I'm looking for some relief from my 'self' and the concomitant freedom to experience the life that wants to flow through me, that is ready and waiting if I will just get out of the way!

So I don't see this conversation ending with me having fully overcome my sense of me.... I think rather that I will be a few steps more along the way, more in the habit of critiquing the self as it arises.

Regards

Barry

[Little Lion]

Hi Barry,

a firmer sense that I am living in what is real

I am totally unfit to point you towards what is real, since I have no clue whatsoever about what is real and what is not. I have not found or heard of a tool that is capable of making that distinction, if it exists at all.

How about being free of the need to define things as being real (and wanted) or not real (unwanted)?

I think rather that I will be a few steps more along the way, more in the habit of critiquing the self as it arises.

How about not being able anymore to draw the line between what is that annoying self and what is not?

Learning to deal with painful states, anxiety, anger is in my eyes called emotionally growing up, maturing. Investigating that which we call 'me' can be a very useful tool in maturing emotionally.

Are you still interested? Please answer genuinely, because you it's useful to have a sense of yes on both sides of this game.

Please use the quote function when you do reply. It makes responses easier to read and helps to keep the responses focussed.

Sunny regards from an a-typical Dutch summer day in october!
Leonie

[BarryG]

Hello Leonie,

Yes, I'm still interested

How about not being able anymore to draw the line between what is that annoying self and what is not?

Is that possible? If I am in physical pain, I want it to stop: I make a distinction from not experiencing physical pain. I cannot imagine not wanting to bring the physical pain to an end, although I can imagine enduring it more easily by not being so identified with it.

Barry

[Little Lion]

You think that feeling bad things equals "this annoying self", right?

For that to be true, we need to be able to find that self. For drawing the line between what is self in us and what not, we have to be able to find that self.

So .. lets go on that exploration.

Imagine I need to fill in for you a day. Part of the job of being you is wrestling with an annoying self. Tell me how to do it. Where do i find the thing i need to wrestle with. How do i relate to it?

[BarryG]

If you were going to be me, I'd say keep paying attention to what you are feeling and perceiving and doing and thinking and imagining. Notice when you have wandered away from that. Notice there will be experiences you want to move away from - what we call 'painful'. They may just arise in your mind, or they may be in response to something that has happened. What is it that wants to move away? And similarly there may be experiences you want to move towards, what we call 'pleasurable'. What is it that wants to move towards? It is hard to pin that down.

Try not moving.

[Little Lion]

Hi Barry,

Would you mind answering all my questions?
And please use the quote function for that.

Quote the question

Answer the question
etc..

As I said before, it helps you focus on really answering the qstn instead of wandering off or around it. It helps you keep track of wether you have answered all qstns. That shows respect to your guide who has taken the time to come up with those qstns :-) And, last but not least, using the quote function saves me the trouble of having to read back into old posts to remember what you are replying to.

Thank you!
Leonie

[BarryG]

You think that feeling bad things equals "this annoying self", right?

For that to be true, we need to be able to find that self. For drawing the line between what is self in us and what not, we have to be able to find that self.

So .. lets go on that exploration.

Imagine I need to fill in for you a day. Part of the job of being you is wrestling with an annoying self. Tell me how to do it. Where do i find the thing i need to wrestle with. How do i relate to it?

Sorry, I thought that was just one question - I thought the first one for you contained the assumption that I'd answered yes, which led you on to your second question, which was the one I spent quite a bit of time writing then re-writing. And I thought I did answer it but saying the self hard to pin down - well, I can't find it, at any rate - and how to relate to this thing we can't pin down, ie by trying not to move towards or away from its call.

[Little Lion]

Ok, no worries Barry. I hear you.

Let's agree that everything with a questionmark is a qstn, ok.
You quote my qstn
You answer it

Quote the next qstn
Answer it

Here's info on the quote function if need be https://www.liberationunleashed.com/nat ... ?f=4&t=660

the self hard to pin down - well, I can't find it, at any rate - and how to relate to this thing we can't pin down, ie by trying not to move towards or away from its call.

That's kind of weird, no, to move towards or away from a thing that you can't find?
You must know where it is 'located' to be able to move away from or towards it.
If I have to be you for a day, I need more clear instructions, otherwise I'll never get it right.
What are the characteristics of this self?
And how do I do this action, of moving away or towards (since I understand it not be a physical moving)?

[BarryG]

Hi Leonie, Life got a bit busy so I thought I'd wait till I had the mental space to be able to think properly....

That's kind of weird, no, to move towards or away from a thing that you can't find?

Yes, I guess it's a manner of speaking. I'm positing a 'thing', but my experience is, say, of a feeling I want to move away from, say anxiety. Or I want to push it away, or do something so that it is no longer what I am experiencing.

What are the characteristics of this self?

My self is separate from what is around me, and from other people. It is not separate from what I think and feel and do. My self - I - take a view on my life, I make judgements on it, and this can cause both painful and pleasurable feelings.

And how do I do this action, of moving away or towards (since I understand it not be a physical moving)?

The experiences that I move towards - 'pleasurable' - I do so by paying attention to them, and I may perform actions that will perpetuate the experience. To move away from aspects of my experience, I will sometimes move my attention elsewhere, think about something else. Or I will do something that I think will remove the experience. Another way of moving away is paradoxical, in that I may pay deliberate attention to the painful feeling, I move towards it, and that often dissolves it and is replaced by a feeling of relief that it is no longer there.

[Little Lion]

Hi Barry,
Sorry for a too long delay. I don't really have an excuse.

Yes, I guess it's a manner of speaking.

You will find that our manners of speaking are the key to unraveling the assumptions that cause struggle. That's why I am gonna disect every word you say :-)

I'm positing a 'thing', but my experience is, say, of a feeling I want to move away from, say anxiety. Or I want to push it away, or do something so that it is no longer what I am experiencing.

So, you are saying that the self is not a thing but an emotion?
If yes, or no, please give me your follow up thoughts.

I do so by paying attention to them - I will sometimes move my attention elsewhere - that I may pay deliberate attention to

Here is a little exploration: pay "attention" for a full day to the process of "attention". I could give you some qstns to take along but I'd rather you come up with your own insights. Go about as a child who has no knowledge and is exploring a totally new fenomenon. Let me know what your exploration brings you.

Curious!
Leonie

[Little Lion]

Saying i didn't have an excuse for responding late sounds like i am not committed, which i am.

My excuse for responding late is dealing with almost burn out due to the care of a foster daughter for a year. Does that hurt your expectations of someone who sees this? (Be honest :-) )

Lets keep this conversation flowing with not too much time lags in between, ok? It feels to me we are not really getting into the flow of the dialogue like this.

[BarryG]

Hi Leonie,

Sorry for the delay. I'm afraid I can't see myself giving this thing the attention it needs right now, there is too much else going on..... I've just started running 1to1 online astrology tuition, and there's been quite a big response and I'm struggling to absorb it right now.

So in a month or two I might get back to you, and if you are still up for it, we could proceed with the search for my non-existent self?

Best wishes

Barry

[Little Lion]

Sure.
Good luck with the astrology thingy.
Grtz
Leonie