Requesting guidance

[Treelife]

Hi Jon,

Where you answer my first question, you say
"...but the thoughts arise and pass away and they do not stick"
Could you say a little more about this please? What has changed in this respect?

What has changed: before the summer I would have been more likely to take the thoughts to be truth/reality, they would 'stick' and their corresponding feelings would 'stick'. Now when a thought arises I know it to be transitory; I know it will pass on to be replaced by another thought. For example, a familiar thought to me is that I am not working hard enough, that I should do more, that I am not being responsible and not good enough in my efforts. In the past that first thought could arise and be followed by a string of corresponding thoughts. I might have believed them, or I might have gotten stuck into an inner battle fighting the thoughts with counter thoughts. Not the initial thought might arise but I know two things: first, it has no inherent truth therefore the only question is whether it is a useful thought or not a useful thought. Second, I know that the thought (and it corresponding feelings) will pass, I don't need to fight them.
The language, "thoughts arise and pass away", in new to me. I find I have only started hearing this inside my head in the last couple of weeks, I think I picked it up from one of the authors on the recommended reading books.

Is this phrase not just a set of labels?

Sorry Jon, I not sure I understand what you are seeking here. Excuse me if I am oversimplifying or perhaps over analyzing, but am I wrong in assuming that all language is a label? Have I not read you using the phrase 'experience of existence' in your past emails?

The story becomes more real than the experience of existence itself.
What are you meaning by the 'experience of existence itself'?

To address your question of the meaning I was intending behind the phrase, it was in relation to the second question of what is the illusion of self. In referencing my experience before seeing through the illusion, back then I was more inclined to the narratives about experience, instead of being inclined towards more direct experience itself, (instead of being inclined towards direct existence itself). To put it another way, the illusion appears to interoperate and filter and spin narratives about sense experience (existence). Where as 'no self' is a more direct experience.

With love,

Mic

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic

Sorry Jon, I not sure I understand what you are seeking here. Excuse me if I am oversimplifying or perhaps over analyzing, but am I wrong in assuming that all language is a label? Have I not read you using the phrase 'experience of existence' in your past emails?

Words are all labels. Perhaps I did use that phrase. I don't remember.

I'm querying whether there is an experience of existance?

Are they two things?

In other words, is there still some idea of an experiencer implied here, that experiences existence?

Please be completely frank if it seems to you that there is, or must be something that experiences existence?

With love,

Jon

[Treelife]

Hi Jon,.
Sorry for delay in responding, after returning home we had a hurricane over here which was quite distracting and also resulted in power cuts.

I'm querying whether there is an experience of existence?
Are they two things?

Ok I got you, yes I understand your question now. Is there an experiencer of existence?
On writing the phrase originally it was not my intention to imply an experiencer. My answer then would have been THERE IS NOONE INSIDE EXPERIENCING. There is experience of sense data and experience of thoughts. Even though thoughts would from time to time suggest otherwise but then such thoughts are not believed. Sometimes there would be a sense of self, but on looking there is no actual self to back it up. Negitive thoughts would sound something like, "Am I deluding myself with thoughts that there is no self"

In other words, is there still some idea of an experiencer implied here, that experiences existence?
Please be completely frank if it seems to you that there is, or must be something that experiences existence?

BUT as we discussed 'no self' is not 100% consistent. Although I might say that the self illusion has significantly dissolved, (& this was most prevalent over the last couple of weeks) from time to time thoughts do challenge the idea of no self (I think we have done a lot of work on this). As we discussed before, there is a pattern to this. Yesterday afternoon the thoughts of the mind REALLY challenged 'no self'. Thoughts put up strong arguments and pushed strong conclusions that there is a self. And again as we discussed this can be difficult. However to put a positive spin on it, this time I did not fight it as I might have tried to in the past. Today the thoughts are easing off but not gone away - again this moving back to seeing through the illusion of 'self' is in keeping with the pattern but maybe I can say the moving on is happening a little quicker this time, than the previous few times we found ourselves here.
"...seems to you that there is, or must be something that experiences existence?" Ehhh no I don't have the thought that there "must be something that experiences existence". When the 'no self' was being challenged last night and this morning, it was more a 'sense of self' and hmmm (for the want to a better phrase) constricted thinking.

Of course yesterday my confidence in all this was shaky, but I did remind myself that I have seen this pattern before (every time I am in the process of declaring I'm going through the gate. Oh and may I also add that there was a full blown hurricane blowing yesterday and that did no help my anxiety either.

Talk soon,
Love

Mic

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

Thanks fir your post. Hope everything is OK now after the hurricane?

My turn to apologise now. I was traveling for mist of yesterday and WiFi wasn't available.

I will reply to you this evening.

All best,

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic

Right! Thank you for your detailed post. Hope the hurricane has completely past now, without damage?

. When the 'no self' was being challenged last night and this morning, it was more a 'sense of self' and hmmm (for the want to a better phrase) constricted thinking.

Thanks for everything you wrote but especially this.

Can you say more,about this 'sense of self'? I apologise if you feel I'm pushing this somewhat but its good to be thorough and to look at whatever turns up.

Are there or seem there to be actual sensations associated with this sense of self?

What about it is sensed?

Take a look at it and let me know if it seems to comprise sensations or more repeated thoughts about how a 'self' really exists?

Love,

Jon

[Treelife]

Hi Jon,

I apologies if you feel I'm pushing this somewhat but its good to be thorough and to look at whatever turns up.

Not an issue. This will take as long as it will take. I understand it won't finish until both of us decide it is finished, or I run out of steam. I don't at this time feel in a hurry. Also the truth is my experience with all this is inconsistent - Monday morning I was confident in my understanding of 'no self', and by Monday evening I was questioning if I was just deluding myself, accompanied with stronger 'sense of self'. Currently I am happy to take time on this and get it right.

Can you say more, about this 'sense of self'? ......

Are there or seem there to be actual sensations associated with this sense of self?

When I refer to the sense of self I tend to be referring to a feeling. at the moment that feelings generally seems to be a sensation in my chest, or a lining of sensation around my body - the latter is the most frequently associated with self. In response to having a sensation is the thought that suggests/implies that it represents a self. When the thoughts are not so constricted I can interrogate/inquiry on that belief - if the mind talks about Santa clause or batman does that make it real - and the suggestion of self shakes off.
When I talk about constricted thoughts I am referring to a rigidity in thoughts that suggest a self. AND/OR I'm also referring to when the story of Mic is so pervasive that there is less room for the experience of 'no self', the story prevails over existence. Let me add to this that it is not that 'self' is in control, it is more that the details of the story are active. Since Monday the story has been quite busy, although incrementally 'no self' or expanding.

On the 20th of September I read the following response from you, “The same mind that believes in the Easter Bunny or Santa, until someone points out that perhaps these are ideas and not actual persons?” This was cathartic, soon after that I was driving home from work and I had an overwhelmingly strong insight that I was not driving the car. The car was being driven, my body was in the car, I was seeing and hearing everything around me but clearly there was no I. Later that night (or maybe the next day) I wrote the following:

That works for me Jon. The sense of self is dissolving. I see it - I have no idea if I will still see it in the morning but this evening I see it. There is nothing to push against, nothing to get rid of, or to fight, or even to dissolve. The I is not any more than an idea. It's only reality is in my mind, and the mind of other people. Like the border around The Sudan…

As well as the sense of self having dissolved, and as well as there being nothing to push against, the story of Mic had little or no suction. The experience of the 20th September is a useful reference point, a reminder of having seen completely through the illusion. Reminder that even though I do not now see through the illusion with the same strength as I did then, it is a strong reminder and strong evidence that supports the experience of ‘no I’. The down side is that it can represent the baseline of what my mind sometimes suggests what I should be seeing. Add to that my experiences of inconsistency; and add to that the pattern of passing through the gate and then immediately proceeded with backlash from mind/thoughts. To oversimplify all this into a bottom line, I defiantly have seen through the illusion of ‘self’ at a very clear level, but I don’t know I am sufficiently holding it - to the point of being sufficient for the UL process.
With love,
Talk soon,

Mic

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

. Currently I am happy to take time on this and get it right.

Good. Its for the best.

. When I refer to the sense of self I tend to be referring to a feeling. at the moment that feelings generally seems to be a sensation in my chest, or a lining of sensation around my body - the latter is the most frequently associated with self. In response to having a sensation is the thought that suggests/implies that it represents a self

Can it seem that the emotional or bodily sensation adds weight or endorses the notion of a 'real self' somehow?

Is it one thing to mentally understand that there can't be a self but another to feel convinced at gut level?

These chest sensations. You can look at these and any other sensation around 'bidy' to see if an entity really hangs out inside them?

Do these feelings somehow provide 'proof' of an entity that exists, judges, controls, suffers and has fixed character, or could the feelings turn up in the same way that thoughts have been seen to appear and disappear?


Love

Jon

[Treelife]

Hi Jon,

Can it seem that the emotional or bodily sensation adds weight or endorses the notion of a 'real self' somehow?

Like a sensation gangs up with the thought that there is a true self. Admittedly the sense of self located in sensation is actually less prevalent at the moment. What is more prevalent is the story of Mic. The mind is busy.

Is it one thing to mentally understand that there can't be a self but another to feel convinced at gut level?

Yes, but it is not one thing or another. My experience of seeing through the illusion of self at present cannot be reduced to a mental activity (as it was before it all started), nor is it at the level of every cell in my body intuitively understanding the truth of no self (as it was on the 20th September and other times). There is a continuum between the two points, and experience is inconsistently moves between them - we have discussed that respective pattern. BUT it is not located anywhere, as there is not an object. It is all about understanding, seeing, beliefs....

These chest sensations. You can look at these and any other sensation around 'bidy' to see if an entity really hangs out inside them?

Yes, this is what I tend to do. Look and see if there is anything there. Inevitable there is not. Most of the time this is enough to dispel the 'sense' of it representing the self. Sometimes the thoughts are less amenable.

Do these feelings somehow provide 'proof' of an entity that exists, judges, controls, suffers and has fixed character, or could the feelings turn up in the same way that thoughts have been seen to appear and disappear?

I am more inclined to say the latter.

After yesterdays correspondence it is very clear to me how much I am in my head since Monday - well I am in my head a lot anyway. I am today trying to focus on "get out of your mind and come to your senses". This seems to be useful.

With love and gratitude,
Mic

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

. After yesterdays correspondence it is very clear to me how much I am in my head since Monday - well I am in my head a lot anyway. I am today trying to focus on "get out of your mind and come to your senses". This seems to be useful.

Something you could try is becoming aware of that which is aware.

How to do this?

Just start to notice whatever it is that is aware, or that notices.

Try it for a few minutes several times. Whatever the experience is like, notice it.

Love,

Jon

[Treelife]

Hi Jon. Thanks for that useful exercise. It is familiar to me and was part of my meditation schedule in the summer but not since. Awareness is just awareness, wnen I look for what/where it is, there is nothing. Interesting, noting the space between sense experience and thoughts; the very faint line that divides them (well there isn't really a line). It is not that the mind plays no part in the process of awareness (helps with focus) yet on the other hand it spins stories and distracts (there in lays the 'self').
What is fairly consistent is that I can't FIND a self, an observer and there is absolutely no one in control - yet right now it seems I am missing something.
Ehh just noticing a resistance (as I write this message). Hmmm I'll focus on that.

Also and don't know why I'm writing this but it relates to a through process that has been reoccurring lately. I actually don't know what is real and what is an illusion, and although there is sense data, ANYTHING beyond that is interpretation - this is now well established. BUT one thing I keep being reminded of lately is this; what ever may be real or not real, pain is definitely real. Even writing this I can see it and feel it and taste it.

Hmmmm

Talk soon, love
M

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

what ever may be real or not real, pain is definitely real. Even writing this I can see it and feel it and taste it.

All sorts of sensations happen and are felt, as well as thoughts that appear. But for whom?

It's not that these sensations do not happen or are not real But what is it that 'experiences' them?

Is that 'me'?


Love

Jon

[Treelife]

Thanks Jon,

All sorts of sensations happen and are felt, as well as thoughts that appear. But for whom?

It's not that these sensations do not happen or are not real But what is it that 'experiences' them?

Of course Jon, how could I have lost that focus. I defiantly have gotten caught in the thought content over the last week.
I can see things more clearly today than I have over the weekend, but what I see is that the presence of the illusion of self is very strong. Very different from what I was experiencing just over a week ago.
I'm back doing some of the exercises I was doing a few months ago - when I look at an object, I ask is there anyone making seeing happen? Is there anyone/thing observing the object being observed? I do find myself back where I was last in August. This feels like a significant step backwards. And my body aches; I was starting to scrutinize what that is about but I just get pulled into spinning narratives - so trying not invest in that.
I really don't know that I will this year manage to sustain fully seeing through the illusion of self, but I am content to continue to try.

Lots of love
Mic

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

Ok. I'm assuming that you want to continue with the inquiry? Let me know if otherwise?

I asked a couple of very specific questions and you may feel that what you wrote answers them? It doesn't. It tells me other stuff but not that you looked at the questions squarely and have addressed them. Will you please now take a look at what they point towards and answer them?

Thank you.


Jon.

[Treelife]

Hi Jon
I did give some thought to your specific questions, and I did not write on them, sorry.

All sorts of sensations happen and are felt, as well as thoughts that appear. But for whom?

...'for whom' implies intent. I cannot identify any intent, therefore I understand the sensations and thoughts are not 'for' anyone.

It's not that these sensations do not happen or are not real But what is it that 'experiences' them?

They are experienced in the body. By the body. For example the sensation in my torso is experienced by the torso. However it appears the mind (thoughts) is what SOMETIMES identifies with the body/sensations. Suggesting that the torso/body is something/someone.

Is that 'me'?

I don't think so. I want to say it is not 'me', even though the mind suggests it.

With Love

Mic

[Treelife]

HI Jon,
I want to make an amendment to the previous entry.
I wrote:

They are experienced in the body. By the body. For example the sensation in my torso is experienced by the torso. However it appears the mind (thoughts) is what SOMETIMES identifies with the body/sensations. Suggesting that the torso/body is something/someone.

Instead I want to comment:

Physical sensations & emotion are related to the body, but they are not experienced 'by the body'. The physical sensation of pain in my neck, or tightness in my chest, or bubbling in my tummy are not felt by the neck, chest or tummy. The sensation hangs in it own territory. The mind labels it as body. The mind/thoughts might labels it as 'self' but certainly the mind/thoughts have something to comment on the sensation and often this commenting is what often gets labeled as 'self'. But it is not 'me', it just says it is 'me'.

With thanks,

Mic