Help needed please

[nerina]

Hi Wesley,

The doubt is mainly around the issue of control, thoughts talk as though they make decisions about some things and I get sucked into believing this.

Coming from the exercise you just did, has this changed at all? What really happens?

When I sit and focus I can see that stuff just happens and the mind just comments on what is occurring. As soon as I go about daily routine this is quickly forgotten - I need a way of staying focussed, and to catch the thought process in action. Recently I had the thought 'I need to go upstairs to get something' but I noticed that my leg had already moved before the thought happened, so obviously the decision had already been made to do this. I need to pay attention to thoughts / actions / decisions, but I usually get swept along in the thought stream.
All the best,
Nina

[WesleySPK]

Hi Nina,

When I sit and focus I can see that stuff just happens and the mind just comments on what is occurring. As soon as I go about daily routine this is quickly forgotten - I need a way of staying focussed, and to catch the thought process in action.

Okay I understand - I understand this all too well...Personally, I found it extremely difficult to follow any kind of rigid practice after LU and found that my life was much more peaceful if I didn't try to "smooth" the disturbed waters - which just seemed to disturb them more. Rather, just letting things flow on along. However a certain amount of focus can be needed and so I would suggest to give this a shot but tailor it to what suits you. My advice would be to just keep it simple, something that doesn't seem like that looming 'thing' to do every day, or every moment.

So, just when you remember to, go through and scan your sense perceptions - What do I see/hear/smell/taste/touch? Go through each sense perception, or sometimes only one is enough. It could only be 15 seconds or sometimes a minute; do what feels right for you. Be clear about what is here, what is happening with or without thought. Then from there, go to your thoughts. What are my thoughts about all of this? What am I thinking? What was I thinking a moment ago?

You may find that just a moment ago you were thinking of something that now seems totally absurd. Or maybe it doesn't, maybe it seems convincing and somehow real. Look behind those thoughts
-What are they made of?
-Do thoughts know anything about sensations?
-Do sensations know anything about thoughts?
-Am I identifying a thought or a sensation as "me"
-Can I find a 'me' or an 'I' in experience?

Doing the scanning exercise can be a very useful way to ground yourself and look from there. Try it out and see how it goes :).

If there's still doubt and confusion, look behind it. Ask yourself what you imagine I might ask you..."where and what is this doubt? What's missing?" Then simply go through your sense perceptions and thoughts and inquire into what it really is.

Hope this helps :)

Wesley

[nerina]

Hi Wesley,
Thanks for the scanning exercise :-) it's very helpful for focussing on direct experience.

Look behind those thoughts
-What are they made of?

Just words

-Do thoughts know anything about sensations?

Thoughts don't know about sensations, they just label them

-Do sensations know anything about thoughts?

Sensations know nothing of thoughts

-Am I identifying a thought or a sensation as "me"

As I read this it is impossible not to think about it, and thought then ponders the question which is answered by a silence, and then lots of distractions - need to keep looking at this.

-Can I find a 'me' or an 'I' in experience?

I get the same result as above, nothing, then thoughts crowd in...'this room needs hoovering..I wonder if it will rain all day...I could just light the fire and open a beer...etc.etc' lots of mind fluff. Need to keep looking at this too.
I will keep going over this, especially the questions that create the most distractions,
Hug,
Nina

[WesleySPK]

Hi Nina,

Glad the exercise has been helpful, let me know how it goes :).

I get the same result as above, nothing, then thoughts crowd in...'this room needs hoovering..I wonder if it will rain all day...I could just light the fire and open a beer...etc.etc' lots of mind fluff. Need to keep looking at this too.
I will keep going over this, especially the questions that create the most distractions,

Okay, perhaps give it another day and let me know what you've found.

Hug,
Wesley

[nerina]

Hi Wesley,
I feel completely stuck. When I scan the senses, for a moment there is just sensation and then thoughts crowd in trying to figure out how to see 'no self' which is obviously impossible. All enquiries invoke more thinking - asking the questions

-Am I identifying a thought or a sensation as "me"
-Can I find a 'me' or an 'I' in experience?

result in thought streams repeating the questions. I'm definitely identifying a thought as me and I don't know how to stop it.
Sorry for being such a hopeless case :-D
Nina

[WesleySPK]

Hi Nina,

Let's have a look!

I'm definitely identifying a thought as me and I don't know how to stop it.
Sorry for being such a hopeless case :-D

Alright, can you explain exactly how this works? Who is identifying what?

Hug,
Wesley

[nerina]

Hi Wesley,

Alright, can you explain exactly how this works? Who is identifying what?

I've been tying myself in knots trying to answer this for the last day, with relentless thoughts racing away, but it has calmed down now. I can't really explain it but by asking 'who is identifying with what' something shifted, and it's all gone quiet - what a relief! Also, allowing the mind to get involved rather than getting irritated has helped.
Thanks,
Nina

[WesleySPK]

Hi Nina,

I've been tying myself in knots trying to answer this for the last day, with relentless thoughts racing away, but it has calmed down now. I can't really explain it but by asking 'who is identifying with what' something shifted, and it's all gone quiet - what a relief! Also, allowing the mind to get involved rather than getting irritated has helped.

This is great to read! It can be difficult when there are so many thoughts going on and lots of distractions I know. Focus on the questions as best as you can, thoughts can come along for the ride but know that you are looking simply at what's happening now, thoughts included.

I'm definitely identifying a thought as me

So here there is an "I", a thought, and a me. Thoughts and language suggest there are 3 things here. But what is actually here to be found right now? Where's this I that is identifying things?

Hug,
Wesley

[nerina]

Hi Wesley,

I'm definitely identifying a thought as me

So here there is an "I", a thought, and a me. Thoughts and language suggest there are 3 things here. But what is actually here to be found right now? Where's this I that is identifying things?

All there is here now is direct experience + thoughts, and the thoughts are quieter too. The 'I' is nowhere to be found; the 'I' thoughts are still there but can be seen as just thoughts, and are less persistent. Hoping they stay that way :-D
Hug,
Nina

[WesleySPK]

Hi Nina,

Great, it seems there is some clarity here. What I would ask you to do now is read your thread all the way through and do ever exercise again - take your time. This can be very clarifying as well as make obvious where you may still feel stuck.

Looking forward to your findings,
Wesley

[nerina]

Hi Wesley,
I have spent some time going back through the thread. There was some sort of reluctance initially; I got totally distracted by the arrival of a new computer - part of this was the understandable 'shiny new toy' excitement, but I also think the mind was looking for distractions. By the time all this had passed the clarity had faded; it feels like the mind is putting up an almighty fight to keep the self illusion going. This is viewed with a mildly humorous sense of resignation rather than irritation - it will be seen when it is.
I still get stuck around the decision making process; thoughts claim choices and I don't seem able to remember to stop and watch the process, I just get swept along with events. I have been approaching this from a different angle by reading articles about brain function in which scientists can tell what option the test subjects have selected way before the conscious decision is made. It still isn't sinking in :-)
All the best,
Nina

[WesleySPK]

Hi Nina,

Ooh shiny new toy! It happens, distractions happen and will likely to continue happening, it's okay. Great that you can view it with humor too.

Okay let's keep it simple. I'd like for you to do an exercise we've already done before and put your hand in front of you. Turn it over, then back, then continue to turn it over and back. Is there a controller in this experience? Do you know when the hand will turn over or not? Thoughts may arise and try to complicate what's really happening, but do this until there's absolutely no doubt.

What do you find?

[nerina]

Hi Wesley,
Sorry for the delay in replying - apart from the shiny new toy having a different operating system to what I’m used to there have been power cuts and wood deliveries to contend with :-)

Okay let's keep it simple. I'd like for you to do an exercise we've already done before and put your hand in front of you. Turn it over, then back, then continue to turn it over and back. Is there a controller in this experience? Do you know when the hand will turn over or not? Thoughts may arise and try to complicate what's really happening, but do this until there's absolutely no doubt.

The hand turns over and then waves the fingers about and does random stuff - definitely no controller. I’m trying to watch other things to see this clearly. I’ve noticed that work is less stressful; before this enquiry I would get worked up over problems and now the attitude is that the job will get done anyway so no need to stress. Things run smoothly from this - the whole new computer thing just seemed to happen without the never ending deliberations that would have happened previously. One thing that causes massive stress is the dog, we were out walking today and I saw a dog in the distance which brought on a huge feeling of irrational panic - the dog was muzzled and couldn’t harm the other dog even if it was close enough but I was a trembling mess, and there was the feeling that ‘I’ needed to keep control.
Hug,
Nina

[WesleySPK]

Hi Nina,

Sorry for the delay in replying - apart from the shiny new toy having a different operating system to what I’m used to there have been power cuts and wood deliveries to contend with :-)

No troubles, sounds like a busy week :)

That's nice your work is less stressful. I think it's very normal to have a feeling of "I" needing to keep control in that situation with your dog.

So then, right now can you perceive a self in any way, shape, or form? If you can't, aren't you already experiencing the absence of a self?

We'll go from here :)
Wesley

[nerina]

Hi Wesley,

So then, right now can you perceive a self in any way, shape, or form? If you can't, aren't you already experiencing the absence of a self?

I can't perceive any self, thoughts talking to 'me' are still here but they are just thoughts.
Yesterday morning I woke up, thoughts of 'what needs doing' came up and a plan was formed the day; I have a question about this process - it seems like the thoughts occur and the plan is formed from them (not 'by' them though) - is this the case or is the plan somehow formed and then the thoughts come and claim it?
Things seem to be going very smoothly, it's hard to explain but there's a sense of just letting stuff happen and it all just rolling along.
Hug,
Nina